henschman Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Well ive posted this on about every other web site remotely having anything to do with the 3800, so i guess ill give you guys a shot at it... I have a 3800 sc from a 97 gtp. I want to add a lot of boost, but to add what i want, i need an intercooler. problem: the aftermarket ic's for the 3800 are way expensive, like over $1200. Solution: the 89-95 thunderbird sc's came with an m90 like mine but mounted "upside down" with the boost going thru a pipe to a front mount ic and then to the intake manifold. Originally, i thought id just replace my sc and manifold with an l36 one and mount the t-bird sc on top and use a front mount ic. Then, i got to thinking, why even bother with removing the stock sc? Just mount the ford sc on top with a plate and run it off the other serpentine belt. Pipe the air from the ford sc to a nice big front mount ic, then into the inlet of the stock m90. I'd probably leave the stock sc at stock boost and run most of it off the ford one so it could be cooled. I think this setup would cool the air enough so i could run maybe 20 psi without knock retard (if the internals could handle it!) For daily driving, i could wire a switch to the clutch on the ford sc and disengage it (like they do in park or neutral) and run on pump gas, but turn it on for racing. It would be the only sequential supercharger system ive ever seen. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOut Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Not to be flip, but have fun with that marvel of engineering. That would be like trying to reassemble humpty dumpty after his infamous fall. If all the Kings horses and all the Kings men couldn't do it I'm going to bet you can't either. Cool idea though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manitcor Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 wont work and would produce less power than a good single SC setup thanks to parasatic loss. If you want to run alot of boost the best option is a turbo. Also look at a CSC reason no one else has anwsered is becasue what you are proposing is retarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloMo94 Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 :? No! That won’t work. I’m pretty sure you would have to set the superchargers timing together some how. You could use a turbo into a supercharger into an intercooler if wanted that can be done of course room would be an issue. Or for a giggle or 2, you could pull the 3800 out and install a 350 with twin belt driven supercharges to each bank of cylinders with separate carbs for each piston! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KING JOKER Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 why not just get a nice intercooler and be done with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp90se Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 if I was stuck with a GTP needing more power, go with headers, 3.4 pully, bigger injectors, 2 1/2 mandrel bent exhaust and a cold air intake and a chip. with just that, your well over 300 horse without an intercooler and you wont blow the engine with just thoes boltons. As far as the tranny goes, thats another story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 If you want a lot of power, then ditch the L67. You're only going to get so much, and a sequential S/C setup is not the way to do it... reliably anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 my friend bill is into the damned L67s alot, i'll just put it this way currently the trans is getting rebuilt and the engine is at a machine shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloMo94 Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 I agree with gp90se, that’s what I found to be the best route also. I checked into this my self when I almost bought a 02' GTP coupe` last year or just stick with what you have![/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Just remote mount the M90 off the L67 and have a custom adapter machined to fit the bottom and pipe the air into the intercooler followed by the engine/intake/throttle body...then you can run an air to air IC like you're wanting to do. Also, the M90 doesn't have an electromagnetic clutch, it would be interesting to see how you will go about adding one to the charger. The eaton E62 from the Mercedes two seater("kompressor"..not sure on the model) has an electromagnetic clutch though along w/ the older Toyota SC's off the MR2's, etc.... EDIT: the E62 is only available on those Mercedes' as far as I know and the way eaton tags their blowers, it would be a smaller 62 cubic inch blower..the Toyota SC's I mentioned are comparable to the 90 cubic inches of the "m90..one version is 1200cc whereas the other Yota' sc is 1400cc(~85.4 cubic inches). EDIT number 2 :oops: : I didn't even think about the "twin supercharged" thing in the title when I posted..but my post still stands. What kind of power are you wanting? People have done very low 11's on the *stock* M90(ported) w/ about every other modification available. Do you have a specific ET or hp/torque level that you want to achieve or what? There are turbo kits available(that replace the sc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henschman Posted August 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 ha i feel dumb! ur right, the m90 doesn't have a clutch. I guess it's just the boost bypass valve that opens when the car's in neutral and park. (shoulda researched before posting!) As for parasitic loss, i don't think it would be too bad. I plan on running about 12psi off the first sc right into the ic. I know the ic would reduce boost somewhat, but only a couple psi. It would be less efficient than a turbo (1 more belt-driven accessory, plus added weight to the car) but again that only loses me a few hp, which the added power the sc supplies easily makes up for. Oh yeah, i've got plenty replies to my idea, but most are just from dumbasses that dont really know what they are talking about and seem content to call me names like "retarded" instead of offer any logical arguement why it wouldn't work. (please don't be one of those people ; ) )As for the engeneering, its actually pretty simple. The main problem is mounting the sc where it would line up with the serpentine belts. The only feasible place is on top of the stock sc, which i could do by replacing the studs that hold down the stock m90 with bolts with long studs on top, onto which i would mount a flat metal plate with tapped holes for mounting the ford sc onto. Mounting the intercooler should be no problem, and I have a friend who runs the local mr. muffler who would do the ic piping. I know i could get around 300 horses with just boltons, but i want to go further, more like 400 hp. A turbo setup would be nice, but also expensive. My idea is cheaper on parts, but involves a lot more work and fabbing than just buying a mass market kit. Oh yeah, there is no reason why i would have to "synchronize" the superchargers ( i assume u mean synchronize the rotors? because they both turn off the engine, they will increase in psi equally in relation to each other as rpm increases)-- they are positive displacement pumps. They just intake air, whatever psi it is at, and further compress it a certain ammount depending on how fast they are rotating. p.s., whats witht all the hatin' on the l67? "buy a 350" wtf? The l67s are cheap to buy in relation to other engines, especially when you consider what all u get. They have all hardened internals with low compression pistons. They come stock supercharged and can handle significanly more boost. I got my engine for $475 shipped w/ 80k on it. Do you know how much it would cost to do what you suggest to a 350? U'd need all new internals and thats just for starters. Plus, we're in a w body forum and can anybody dispute that the l67 is hands down the most superior engine offered in the w-body? O ya p.p.s. about putting an adapter between the stock sc and routing the boost to the frontmount ic, thats a good idea and i considered it. Some guy from australia w/ a holden monaro w/l67 actually did it and says it works great. I just think the custom fab involved would be about as much as fabbing a mounting plate for the other sc, and 2 sc's would give me more boost potential than a single stock m90 can offer. dam that was a long post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KING JOKER Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 i dont mean to sound stupid but what are you going to do with all of the horsepower that you will have??? do you go to the track often and race? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Plus, we're in a w body forum and can anybody dispute that the l67 is hands down the most superior engine offered in the w-body? I can. Okay, 20 psi, positive displacement. Whew. Good luck w/ that. You're gonna have to fill the block to keep up w/ that. You seem to have your ideas lined up, but you're just not making any sense. $1200 seems pretty cheap compared to buying another S/C'r, and a FMIC (have you looked at prices of a decent FMIC? Hell, you'd be half way to $1200 in that alone) If I was going to do anything like this, I would feed the blower w/ a turbo. Makes alot more sense, it's cheaper, and most importantly, other people do it. There is help to be had out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Plus, we're in a w body forum and can anybody dispute that the l67 is hands down the most superior engine offered in the w-body? Talk to a few people around here and you might think differently, though I pretty much agree... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Plus, we're in a w body forum and can anybody dispute that the l67 is hands down the most superior engine offered in the w-body? yes, yes we can dispute that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett8 Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Plus, we're in a w body forum and can anybody dispute that the l67 is hands down the most superior engine offered in the w-body? i always figured it would be the turbo 3.1 by mclaren in the turbo gp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henschman Posted August 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 name the fastest 3.1 turbo car. Name the fastest lq1 car. Name the fastest l67 car. Add that shit up. Oh and about the prices, on http://www.sccoa.com, they sell sc's for 120-150. On ebay, i see massive fmics go for a lil over 200 all day long. A guy i know who owns a performance shop had a huge double core ic he'd sell me for like 250. My friend who runs mr. muffler in my town would do the ic piping for around 60. The rest would be studs and metal parts and a LOT of fab work. Add that shit up. (im a cheapass and i don't mind a little work and engineering what can i say) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantomshado Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 If you're looking for this much power, I'd say get an L36, and go with an electron s/c or two turbos. two turbos, each duming about 18 psi, yields about 32-34 psi after a decent intercooling. drop the compression to 7.0 to 1, and pick up a reman stroker crank which puts the displacement out to 4.1L Hell, you could even put a co2 fogger on the intercooler if you want. Plus, I, and who here doesn't love the sound of turbo spool??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manitcor Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 If your producing enough boost parasatic loss is overcome however an M90 with a 3.2 pulley will suck 50hp (not a couple) from the enging just to turn the supercharger once its rolling. I like the idea of 1 SC per bank but I honestly dont think your going to see an advantage of inline SCs. An SC has a max poetential based on design and pulley size and if you have 2 identical SCs running in line I dont believe they would compress the air any more than 1 SC running the same RPM. The difference is that your now loosing more power (up to 100 ponies depending on your setup) from having to turn those monsters. But hey im not a professor in flow dynamics and Im not going to spend hours figuring out the mathmetical formulas to see if it would work or not (though I reccomend that you do if you havent already). For the cost of a setup like that though I think you could get more out of a solid turbo setup on an L67 bottom end. The cost would be about the same though I think the turbo might be cheaper as the custom machining required to get the intake system where you need it not to mention hood modification, rerouting the fuel system, throttle and a whole lot of other things to make it happen might actually make your project cost more than a turbo even though you can get M90s like cracker jack prizes. And no I dont think the L67 is any pinnicale in GMs engine platforms. If it was so awesome then they wouldnt be replacing it with the 3900 and the Gv6 3.6 and 2.8 which are all 660 engines btw 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsgrntld187 Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Can you do a hybrid with a turbo and a sc like run the turbo into the SC? I know its possible on GT2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsgrntld187 Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 :shock: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loominaz34 Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 :shock: :shock: :shock: check out the paint on the fender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manitcor Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 buwhahhahaha thanks right click>save as I forgot to mention that little nugget about the L67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 You're gonna need to re-read my message. It says GOOD intercooler. Big isn't good. Good is good. AE? Pressure drop? You can just go buy a BIG intercooler and hope it's a good one. Yeah, a $120 blower, add that to my list of "external" combustion engine parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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