LukeZ34 Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Anyone ever used this stuff? Good things, bad things about it? It's a R12 replacement that's cheaper, less hazardous and uses the existing R12 lubricant.. My AC is needing recharged, and I thought it may be cheaper and better to go this route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 IIRC, most of that product is actually 134 refridgerant (sp?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Just buy a $19 or $29 retrofit kit from AutoShit and fit it up. Mine cost $19 (sale) and I have A/C now. It comes with conversion can of r134a and oil to make sure everything is lubed up properly. How thoughtful... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Is it any cheaper than R-134a? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted July 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 I found it for $41.95 for a kit that had all the fittings, hoses, 3 12 oz cans of refrigerant and a few other things.. can't remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 http://www.sherco-auto.com/fr4012.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/mvacs.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted July 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Yea, that's the site that had it for that price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 A lot of people from school that I know have used it and haven't had any problems with it. I would use Freeze 12 in my 93, but I've got free 134a I can use at school(one more perk of taking automotive classes). ' EDIT: I'm going to convert the 93 to the 134a later this week, I'm taking a climate controls class so I've got lots of ac work to do with it being hot here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5speedz34 Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Is there ne thing better about freeze 12 over the retrofitting of the R134-A? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 FR-12, R-409a, R-414b and R-416a have larger molecules then R-134a and use the existing pag oils in the system. They are all R-22 blends typically meaning they operate at cooler tempatures then R-134a will ever run at. They are a 90% fill meaning you use less then your traditional R-12. R-134a "wal-mart" retrofits aren't that great because the oil mix from the R-12 to the R-134a (PAG for the R-12 and Mineral oil for the R-134a) system will create an acid destroying the hoses, inside of the condensor and evaporator, and kill your TX valve or Oriface tube (depending on what your car uses) plus the smaller molecules of the R-134a can leak out of small cracks in rubber gaskets, and even seep thru the hoses themselves. Personally, it's not hard to get the license to buy R-12, and even tho it's expensive as hell, if you're sure you have no leaks, you can't go wrong, altho I think I will be using FR-12 next time I need a recharge. --DaveFromColorado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 I think you have that backwards, I'm almost certain mineral oil is for R-12 and PAG is for R-134a. There is also something called Ester that's compatible with both, and that's what needs to be used for an R-134a retrofit. As far as orifice tubes, what do we have in the W's and where is it? My friend who has an EPA refrigeration license (or whatever it's called) seemed to think a few years ago that a Variable Orifice Valve would make an R-134a retrofit blow much colder. He showed me one, but I still have no idea where it would go or what it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 You're correct about the pag/mineral oil, I did have that backwards. I do believe that the W-bodies use the TX (thermal expansion) valve I will have to look into it, I'm not sure about the VOV's I have heard about them but I don't know enough to give any input. anyhow you will locate the valve near the evaporator where the high pressure "liquid" side of the system (between condensor and evaporator) line runs in just before the evaporator. it takes the high pressure liquid and moves it into a low pressure area where it can absorb much more heat energy while turning into a gas. --DaveFromColorado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey River Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 I think you have that backwards, I'm almost certain mineral oil is for R-12 and PAG is for R-134a. There is also something called Ester that's compatible with both, and that's what needs to be used for an R-134a retrofit. As far as orifice tubes, what do we have in the W's and where is it? My friend who has an EPA refrigeration license (or whatever it's called) seemed to think a few years ago that a Variable Orifice Valve would make an R-134a retrofit blow much colder. He showed me one, but I still have no idea where it would go or what it does. W-bodies have a FOT (Fixed Orifice Tube) and it is located under the airbox. Remove the airbox and you'll see the two charging ports, the larger pipe is the low pressure side, smaller is high pressure. Between the high side port and the firewall is a connecting joint. That is where the OT is located. A VOV has had mixed results on non-variable compressors. The V5 is a swash-plate variable compressor, when the VOV begins to close at idle, the compressor begins to shorten it stroke to maintain an approx. 30 psi low side. Only way to change that is to replace the control valve, not a hard job but the refrigerant needs to be reclaimed. What I did was went to a Ford Blue OT, it has a smaller orifice, there by forcing the compressor to draw a little more vacuum at speed, I have observed 26-28 psi at 2000 rpm. This translates into an evaporator temp of 36 degrees (Using R134a) and 40 degree vent temps. A conversion can be successfully done and have good results. Also, those of looking into Freeze-12, I have nothing against this refrigerant, I'm sure it works, I chose not to use it. If something happens to your car and you need to have the AC worked on at a shop, most places won't touch it. Also, because it is a blend, you can't just "top it off" if you have a leak and the level gets low. You have to reclaim and refill. This is stated on the Freeze-12 website (really have to look for it to find it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Good deal.. I think I'll be looking in to this. What's a standard charge ($) to evacuate the old R-12? I know it differs, but I'm just wondering what others have paid. I'm not too crazy about letting it go in the air (and no, I'm not an environmentalist hippie ), but if it comes down to that, I can do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey River Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Good deal.. I think I'll be looking in to this. What's a standard charge ($) to evacuate the old R-12? I know it differs, but I'm just wondering what others have paid. I'm not too crazy about letting it go in the air (and no, I'm not an environmentalist hippie ), but if it comes down to that, I can do it. If there is nothing wrong with your system other than a low charge, you can get R12 off ebay for a little as $20 a can. It would only take 2 cans to almost completely recharge your system. 3 cans if the system was completely dry. If you had a slow leak over time then there is no need to even add oil. If a hose burst or a gasket let go then that might be a different story. Besides, nothing works better in an R12 system than R12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 W-bodies have a FOT (Fixed Orifice Tube) and it is located under the airbox. Remove the airbox and you'll see the two charging ports, the larger pipe is the low pressure side, smaller is high pressure. Between the high side port and the firewall is a connecting joint. That is where the OT is located. A VOV has had mixed results on non-variable compressors. The V5 is a swash-plate variable compressor, when the VOV begins to close at idle, the compressor begins to shorten it stroke to maintain an approx. 30 psi low side. Only way to change that is to replace the control valve, not a hard job but the refrigerant needs to be reclaimed. What I did was went to a Ford Blue OT, it has a smaller orifice, there by forcing the compressor to draw a little more vacuum at speed, I have observed 26-28 psi at 2000 rpm. This translates into an evaporator temp of 36 degrees (Using R134a) and 40 degree vent temps. A conversion can be successfully done and have good results. Good info, although I don't really understand it because I don't know much about AC (okay, I'm clueless). So why did you choose the Ford Blue OT over a VOV? How much trouble is it to replace? What and where is the control valve that you speak of? Would there be any benefit to replacing these things in a car designed for R-134a? Freeze-12 sounds good, but I want to stay with R-134a for the same reasons you mention, not to mention at $3-something per can from Wal-mart, it's a whole lot cheaper and if there happens to be a leak, I won't get too upset about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 You can get it that cheap? I've never really looked for it since I always thought it was so expensive.. The system is fine, the AC's cooling is just starting to lack some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey River Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 W-bodies have a FOT (Fixed Orifice Tube) and it is located under the airbox. Remove the airbox and you'll see the two charging ports, the larger pipe is the low pressure side, smaller is high pressure. Between the high side port and the firewall is a connecting joint. That is where the OT is located. A VOV has had mixed results on non-variable compressors. The V5 is a swash-plate variable compressor, when the VOV begins to close at idle, the compressor begins to shorten it stroke to maintain an approx. 30 psi low side. Only way to change that is to replace the control valve, not a hard job but the refrigerant needs to be reclaimed. What I did was went to a Ford Blue OT, it has a smaller orifice, there by forcing the compressor to draw a little more vacuum at speed, I have observed 26-28 psi at 2000 rpm. This translates into an evaporator temp of 36 degrees (Using R134a) and 40 degree vent temps. A conversion can be successfully done and have good results. Good info, although I don't really understand it because I don't know much about AC (okay, I'm clueless). So why did you choose the Ford Blue OT over a VOV? How much trouble is it to replace? What and where is the control valve that you speak of? Would there be any benefit to replacing these things in a car designed for R-134a? Freeze-12 sounds good, but I want to stay with R-134a for the same reasons you mention, not to mention at $3-something per can from Wal-mart, it's a whole lot cheaper and if there happens to be a leak, I won't get too upset about it. I chose the Blue OT (0.067" orifice) over the VOV as a matter of convenience as well as price. The pressure drop is not enough to cause the control valve to compensate thereby giving me slightly lower temps than I would get if I left the white GM OT (0.072") installed. To replace the OT is easy, take the connection apart under the air box on the high side line and you'll see the end of the FOT right there, a pair of needle nose pliers and a small tug and it was out. If you do decide to work on this, be sure to coat the new OT's o-rings with oil before putting it in. The control valve is on the back of the compressor itself. If you were to look at one out of a box, you would identify it quite quickly. It isn't hard to change, just have to reclaim, change, vacuum and refill. It took me 2 hours to do my conversion but I let the vacuum pump run for an hour to ensure there was no moisture in the system. As for replacing it on a system already running R-134. It would probably be too much hassle for the nominal gain you would get. Most cars are going back to a TXV. A TXV is a much better system than the FOT, it also costs more to make. Gotta love GM for taking the cheap way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylifeisstupid Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 just wanted to add my story, let me know what you think. So summer rolls around and its 90+ here in NY, so I turn on the AC, nothing. Pop the hood, and the compressor isn't spinning. I go out and buy 2 cans of r134a at target, fill it up, and it works perfectly and makes my girlfriend happy. I go home, park the car for a few hours, get reay for work, and start it back up, no AC. Obviously there is a leak. I left it like that for maybe a month, and today I needed a new headlamp (30 fuggin dollars) and while I was at NAPA I bought a can of thier leak stopper and put that in, along with 2 11oz cans of r134a. It blows cold on the way around town and home, and when I go to work I will know if the sealer really worked or not. So what are your guys opinion on this sealer? And if it doesn't work, what should my next course of action be? Sorry for threadjacking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey River Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 just wanted to add my story, let me know what you think. So summer rolls around and its 90+ here in NY, so I turn on the AC, nothing. Pop the hood, and the compressor isn't spinning. I go out and buy 2 cans of r134a at target, fill it up, and it works perfectly and makes my girlfriend happy. I go home, park the car for a few hours, get reay for work, and start it back up, no AC. Obviously there is a leak. I left it like that for maybe a month, and today I needed a new headlamp (30 fuggin dollars) and while I was at NAPA I bought a can of thier leak stopper and put that in, along with 2 11oz cans of r134a. It blows cold on the way around town and home, and when I go to work I will know if the sealer really worked or not. So what are your guys opinion on this sealer? And if it doesn't work, what should my next course of action be? Sorry for threadjacking Well, here is my "opinion" on sealer. Since you have already used it, then lets hope it works. Most shops won't even begin to fix a system that has sealer in it. There have been too many reports of the sealer ruining reclaimation equipment. If it doesn't work, try to find a shop that will evac the system. Most places won't and will suggest you change everything except the aluminum pipes and even then they want you to take them out and flush them with lacquer thinner. Sealer is a bad thing in the AC industry and most shops would have suggested a UV dye to help isolate the leak. Sorry it's not good news, maybe it'll solve the leak you are having. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron350 Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Whiskey River i can tell you know your A/C. Keep up the good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylifeisstupid Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 fuck. Well its been running strong for a whole day now, lets hope it will last me until I get a new car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Whiskey River - I looked up 99-01 Luminas, and they use a VDOT (Variable Displacement Orifice Tube) system. Does VDOT mean it uses a VOV, or does VDOT simply mean it uses a FOT and the compressor is variable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey River Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Whiskey River - I looked up 99-01 Luminas, and they use a VDOT (Variable Displacement Orifice Tube) system. Does VDOT mean it uses a VOV, or does VDOT simply mean it uses a FOT and the compressor is variable? To my knowledge the Luminas ran the V5 compressor throughout their life. I would guess they still used the FOT. It wouldn't make much sense to use a variable orifice tube with a variable compressor. Bet you have learned more about AC then you really wanted to. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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