R Dubya Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 I've been reading these threads on here and the TGP forums about the Performance Crane Cams available for the 3.1. I've recently run into some problems with my newer TGP involving valves and broken pushrods, and I am going to replace the cam when I pull the heads to have them serviced. Has anyone used an aftermarket cam in the TGP motor that could comment on it? Would there be chip modifications involved or just install and break it in? Never done this before so I'm scared to damage the engine.. anyone?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted June 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 From what I've gathered the stock 3.1 "T" cam and "V" cam is the same, correct?? I'm fairly sure that this problem with the valves and pushrods is something that has affected this cars driveability for some time now.. not just when I started it for the first time in 3 years. I'm pulling the heads and I am set on replacing that cam for fear of damaged lobes. You have that performance cam in a 3.1 Cutty if I read a certain post correctly, but no one has used this in the TGP setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 yeah, T and V are same cam. I think somewhere maybe something said about the TGP cam being a hair different, but I may be wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted June 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 When I remove the cam from this motor I will have it measured and compared to stock 3.1 cam measurements. So you are using the Crane Cam upgrade in a turbo 3.1? Have you noticed any issues with idling or driveability? You bought this from GMPartsDirect correct? I'm fairly sure that I will be getting myself that cam also.. I don't want to do this again if the current one fails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboZ24 Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Crower has made me a custom flat tappet cam for a turbo 3.1. I'll see how well it performs in the car when it's done. (this is another car, not mine, it's a traditional 3.1 Vin V with a T3/T4 hybrid, bigger intercooler, and the cam with ported heads). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted June 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 How much $$ would I expect to spend on a P&P for my heads and intake? I'm fairly sure that my cylinder 5 exhaust valve was sticking and it screwed up the pushrod BAD.. so I'm afraid of lobe damage. I've got to pull the heads and have all the valves done. Is there chip tuning needed for these types of mods? How about rockers, are there upgrades for those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted June 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Ok, I will check with the local shop here in town.. Do I have to yank the engine to pull the cam or can I pull it out through the wheel well? Again, never done this before.. sorry for the newb question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted June 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 holesaw through the metal? or the plastic? I don't want to make any unecsessary holes in the car.. maybe i could drop the frame to get the thing out.. this car is in beautiful shape with only 38k on it.. don't want to trash it... Before I do the cam change I'm gonna do some more diagnostics and troubleshooting... maybe all I will do it the heads... but check the cam. not sure yet.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 I thought you were supposed to rub gravel all over it??? Davis, do you have a laptop? If so, you need to budget in about another $30-$50 for an ALDL cable. So we can see what my chip thinks about that cam. I'd hate for it not to like it. IMPO, I'd say stick w/ the stock cam. If you happen to run out of cam, (Which you won't) then I'd worry about it. Not until then. I'd just go new stock, and MAKE SURE it gets broken in well, and has PLENY of oil while it's happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Also, w/ the problems we have with chewing up cam lobes, I wouldn't trust a 38K cam to baseline a decision on. W/O a doubt there is enough wear to throw the facts off. (Especially if you are suspecting it to be bad.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no1kicker Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Could always go with just rockers if you don't want to do a cam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted June 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Well, I'm not sure if that rocker on exhaust valve cylinder 5 isn't the problem anyway.. the rocker was totally off the valve spring when I removed the cover.. when the pushrod came out it was L shaped and broke clean with mild pressure from my hands.. I'm going to replace it and check the pushrod again. The valve moved when I pryed on it, but it was difficult to move, then again so are they all. I need to measure the movement and get a little more technical. I'll look into the rockers.. does GM have anything on those lines or products? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Yeah, don't think that I'm saying it'll blow up. If anything it'll just make it run stronger before boost. 1K-2200 (What I'm hoping for!!) Then the turbo will catch up, and make it fly. It's BECAUSE of the price I'm hoping it works out. I can look into the cable and then maybe ship it w/ the chip. We'll see. I got all the changes made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Could always go with just rockers if you don't want to do a cam. Exactly. The stock cam isn't bad, obviously it isn't the best, but its capable of putting a TGP well into the 12's IMO with the right heads and such. Higher ratio rockers with the stock cam would be a pretty good setup. Thats what I was planning on doing to my TSTE (and may still do, not sure). However, I have to pull the heads off because I am going to rebuild the heads (the car smokes blue smoke anytime the oil pressure is below about 40psi (which is basically only idle), but not at WOT or anything like that, so from what I can tell it isn't the rings.) and figure while I'm at it I might as well put in new valves, springs, and pushrods, and am considering doing a cam at the same time. The cam I found is a Fiero cam and its pretty nice IMO, its like .440/458 lift with 212/216 duration IIRC. I actually bought one on ebay but the guy never sent it. But depending on what I feel like doing at the time, I might just put some rockers in there and call it good. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboZ24 Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 I think for this milder 3.1, we paid 250 US for P&P on the heads, exhaust manifold P&P and matching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted June 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Also, w/ the problems we have with chewing up cam lobes, I wouldn't trust a 38K cam to baseline a decision on. W/O a doubt there is enough wear to throw the facts off. (Especially if you are suspecting it to be bad.) I'm not sure if the lobes are chewed up.. but if that valve is now bent/caught up/or once was caught up I'm sure it damaged the cam in some way.. despite those pushrods are most likely designed to break before the cam does.. ?? Do these motors have a problem with the cams? I'm sure it's worn, and I have really no way of telling how long this was a problem.. Jay- what software do you run to monitor and watch the engines activity? my brother has a laptop and I was looking at the ALDL cables on Ebay.. I'd like to get into that stuff.. I'm going to do a 5 spd swap next year.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Also, w/ the problems we have with chewing up cam lobes, I wouldn't trust a 38K cam to baseline a decision on. W/O a doubt there is enough wear to throw the facts off. (Especially if you are suspecting it to be bad.) I'm not sure if the lobes are chewed up.. but if that valve is now bent/caught up/or once was caught up I'm sure it damaged the cam in some way.. despite those pushrods are most likely designed to break before the cam does.. ?? Do these motors have a problem with the cams? I'm sure it's worn, and I have really no way of telling how long this was a problem.. Jay- what software do you run to monitor and watch the engines activity? my brother has a laptop and I was looking at the ALDL cables on Ebay.. I'd like to get into that stuff.. I'm going to do a 5 spd swap next year.. No the TGP nor the 3.lL that this is based on has some “typical†cam eating problem (“typical†Jay saying this about anything that breaks on these cars ). Jay I have told you to quit being so quick to stereo type this car’s parts, it needlessly concerns people who own one or who are looking to own one or looking to work on one, alright !! With the couple hundred thousand 3.1L out there and based on the Engine Rebuilders Association, nothing uncommon about cam wear on the 3.1L motor! If someone is that worried then Crower makes special Cam Saver Lifters, but these are more to address the increased oiling needs of high revving, higher spring pressures, high performance engines, though still a nice piece, Summit or Jegs and skip all this GM parts stuff suppliers! RW89TGP, it would be nice to have your name so I can address you better ;-). Don’t get too onto taking the heads off yet, think again about what you can do here, and that is to measure the lobe left on the cam in question, either; Summit and Jegs make such a cheap costing tool you stick on your head that will allow you to measure cam lift, and to determine very precisely the chances of the lobe being more worn than the rest (not much in that virgin engine :-)), just need to rotate the engine and observe the rocker movement as it collapses the spring down/lobe lifts up. OR you can do this yourself with this little trick (you owe me ), with the lower intake off, look at a lifter at a known good cylinder/intake, rotate the engine (wrench on the alternator and all spark plugs out should allow this, if not then turn crank pulley with a socket wrench) when that lifter gets to its highest point, then take it out, wipe off the oil on it then reinstall and mark with a felt tip maker the amount of the lifter body sticking up. Now remove that same lifter, put it into the suspected bad lifter hole/intake, again rotate the engine and note if the same amount of felt marker mark shows up. Now mark another known good exhaust lifter and check the other suspect lifter hole/cam lobe with it, let us know what you find! If you need a cam, the TGP cam is the same as NA, and to answer your long awaited question, the engine’s computer will not like a different cam such as an “upgrade†AND, the stock turbo will restrict (on the exhaust side) any gains an upgraded cam would try to give. Tuning a chip will be a whole nother learning curve if you are wanting to get into this, making changes is easy, making the right changes takes the proper knowledge, a lot of time and the right tools, and some risk, even the pros and new cars from the auto manufactures are always saying the chip/program needs some more work to get things right (more tuning for full power for the pros vehicles, and volumes of books showing updates to stock chips for street cars). Summit sells SpeedPro/Federal Mogul which are less money than a GM valve train part and just as good if not better, I have many spare stock rockers if you need one, push rods and valves as well. Last, same with the cam, the chip will not know what to do with P&P heads, great opportunity I hear you big time, just hate to hear back on how bad it runs when the computer yells. I have been extremely busy/again but will try to check back here for your results! Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Yea I said it, comfortable enough to not feel it come back and bite me , especially since from 1996 I have had a few owners get them read on a machine to confirm their values :-). Well, GM part number like these I don’t think about much since the price, just to say though don’t get Mellings Cam, theirs have dropped in quality control, last Mellings I got (last month) had rusted journals and lots of casting sand still left in it, guess I got what I paid for/$68 . Speedpro number is CS-763 and I am sure Summit can get it and ship to you up there. Same as with the lifters. As for the computer puking on an upgrade, yep, aside from knowing how computers act/react , had a local owner who did not tell me he was doing this in his rebuild then later complained how poorly it idled, hard it started/8 mpg etc, he did his heads too and upon testing/lame chip fix for now, was no faster with all this than stock, damn stock turbo was still restricting the added exhaust coming out of the worked engine, and he still had stock size injectors. I don’t need no stinking cam specs (funny if you seen Clint Eastwood’s film?), seen all the ones GM list, and everyone else, got some huge ass spread sheet of them, the one I picked for my over-mod’d TGP was the Crane Cams one for a mild turbo, more than enough since a huge turbo will force feed baby quite well, even with a stock cam!!!! Did you notice the statement “not for pollution controlled vehiclesâ€Â? not that many care but that one tells you things won’t be running proper for an ECM controlled car. Yep, higher rocker arm ratio is the same as upgraded cam, more lift, and some pro racers run nearly flat cam lobes but HUGE Rocker Ratios, easier on the valve train while still getting great lift! “Me no sell no parts to you mister†And as for “second guessingâ€Â, its just learning, best thing anyone can do is ask and look to learn, learning on your own can be painful and time consuming, I practice that a lot so others don’t have tooooooo . Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1badtgp Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 I actually ran a Crane 2020 cam in mine. While not radical, it is a bit more than stock. It did show noticeable power gains from stock with the stock chip, and a little more with my burned chip. Crane also steps up another notch with a "2030" cam, which I think would be a bit to radical for the stock TGP code. I would also look into an upgraded turbo before that cam. It's not a lot more than the "2020" in terms of specs, but enough to warrant some extra work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 1) I never said it was "typical" (those are quotation marks, meaning you quoted me, which I didn't say typical, I said problems PLURAL. More than once. Which is true.) And guess what, here's another person making it even more "typical" And injectors: 2 out of 2? I would consider that typical. 2) Hey, the more people buying these cars to work on them means less for me! I'm just trying to scare people away. 3) There is not a couple thousand turbo 3.1's out there. And if you want to group them all together that's fine. I won't. There not the same. I figured you of all people should know they are different. (They are way faster ) [HUGE chop]...allow you to measure cam lift, and to determine very precisely the chances of the lobe being more worn than the rest (not much in that virgin engine :-))... AND this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Better change that smiley face. :oops: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 1) I never said it was "typical" (those are quotation marks, meaning you quoted me, which I didn't say typical, I said problems PLURAL. More than once. Which is true.) And guess what, here's another person making it even more "typical" And injectors: 2 out of 2? I would consider that typical. 2) Hey, the more people buying these cars to work on them means less for me! I'm just trying to scare people away. 3) There is not a couple thousand turbo 3.1's out there. And if you want to group them all together that's fine. I won't. There not the same. I figured you of all people should know they are different. (They are way faster ) [HUGE chop]...allow you to measure cam lift, and to determine very precisely the chances of the lobe being more worn than the rest (not much in that virgin engine :-))... AND this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Better change that smiley face. :oops: You have a PM Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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