It's alive!! Lifter sticking??

[R Dubya]

Well after many times taking this thing apart and putting it back together and not doing it right the first time I think I found my problem..

 

Took the lower intake off again today, inspected the pushrods and lifters, everything seemed to be in order.. rockers were still connected, no bent or broken rods, it all looked good. So I removed the spark plugs and grabbed my socket and turned the crankshaft pulley to see the lifter movement and make sure that was ok. All lifters moved, even the #5 exhaust lifter which was the one with the broken pushrod. As the camshaft rotated every lifter moved except for the intake lifter on cylinder #5.. and as I watched the exhaust lifter go up, then down, then up and down again, there was no movement from the intake lifter. Closer inspection as the cam rotated revealed that there is actually no lobe on the the camshaft for cylinder 5 intake. So it looks like this engine will be coming out and heads will be done and new camshaft is in order. I really expected to see another broken pushrod, but of course, my luck gets me again, and I will be diving further into this than I ever expected.

 

So, unfotunately, the only way to get this cam out is to pull the block or drill a massive hole in the fender well?? Is it possible to drop the front of the subframe to get enough clearance to remove the cam? Or am I just hoping against hope here??? Awww shit. This is really starting to blow.. I just can't understand why something like this could happen on such a low mileage engine.. I have 160K on my other TGP and I have never had any problems mechanically with it, just simple things such as ECM and ICM and of course xover and such. It would probably be best to remove this engine I assume and give the lower end a look over also correct?

[TGPilot]

It would probably be best to remove this engine I assume and give the lower end a look over also correct?

 

Well as I posted before the worst case scenario would be a lobe missing on the cam! :? You most certainly need to do a full motor inspection as the lobe has worn away and the metal does not evaporate...it finds it's way around the motor. You should plan on a full engine rebuild to include a major professional interior oil passage cleaning!! you may get lucky and non of the metal found it's way into the bearing journals...but very doubtful.

 

Sorry to hear that the worse thing possible could happen actually happened to you, but in my world it is just par for course! 8)

[R Dubya]

Well, just got off the phone with my local Pontiac dealer, got a pn# for 3.1 camshaft as #10166324. list $255.53, gmpartsdirect offers for $185 shipped, but this guy at the dealer knows me, gives me a deal, and told me $175 for the camshaft. Also got a price on the head gasket set from the dealer, pn# 12511885, list around $170, given to me for $120, I don't think I can go wrong here. However, it doesn't come with new lifters.. thats another 100-150 from the dealer.. or I could go with Autozone at $5 a piece. I suppose it's time for the engine to come out and give this thing the breakdown buildup. Dammit! Only 38K!! :shock: :dammit:

[TGPilot]

Well you can go with the stock gasket set or get a Fel-Pro Head set for like $80. The Fel-Pro set comes with everything you need to put the top half of your motor back together. Plus I think I read from a few of the TGP wrench-heads that they prefer the Fel-Pro over stock. Me personally...I am a die-hard Fel-Pro user anyway.

 

Fel-Pro Set Part Number HS9471PT Includes:

 

Component - Quantity

THERMOSTAT SEAL-1

O RING-1 I think this is the Distributor O-ring

THROTTLE BODY-1

INSTALLATION AID-2

EGR TRANSFER TUBE 62MM-1

EGR TRANSFER TUBE 66MM-1

EGR VALVE-1

EGR TRANSFER TUBE-1

EGR ADAPTER-1

EXHAUST VALVE STEM SEAL-VITON-6

O RING-6- Fuel injector O-rings

INTAKE VALVE STEM SEAL VITON-6

ENGINE COOLANT BY-PASS SEAL-1

HEAD GASKET 3 CYLINDER-2

VALVE COVER-2

 

and this set lists for $67... 8)

 

Here is one place to look for all your needs... https://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/mfr,FEL-PRO 8)

[Jeff M]

Well, just got off the phone with my local Pontiac dealer, got a pn# for 3.1 camshaft as #10166324. list $255.53, gmpartsdirect offers for $185 shipped, but this guy at the dealer knows me, gives me a deal, and told me $175 for the camshaft. Also got a price on the head gasket set from the dealer, pn# 12511885, list around $170, given to me for $120, I don't think I can go wrong here. However, it doesn't come with new lifters.. thats another 100-150 from the dealer.. or I could go with Autozone at $5 a piece. I suppose it's time for the engine to come out and give this thing the breakdown buildup. Dammit! Only 38K!! :shock: :dammit:

 

I will move this old reply to here for your info, please read!!! 8)

 

No the TGP nor the 3.lL that this is based on has some “typical†cam eating problem (“typical†Jay saying this about anything that breaks on these cars ). Jay I have told you to quit being so quick to stereo type this car’s parts, it needlessly concerns people who own one or who are looking to own one or looking to work on one, alright !! With the couple hundred thousand 3.1L out there and based on the Engine Rebuilders Association, nothing uncommon about cam wear on the 3.1L motor! If someone is that worried then Crower makes special Cam Saver Lifters, but these are more to address the increased oiling needs of high revving, higher spring pressures, high performance engines, though still a nice piece, Summit or Jegs and skip all this GM parts stuff suppliers! RW89TGP, it would be nice to have your name so I can address you better . Don’t get too onto taking the heads off yet, think again about what you can do here, and that is to measure the lobe left on the cam in question, either; Summit and Jegs make such a cheap costing tool you stick on your head that will allow you to measure cam lift, and to determine very precisely the chances of the lobe being more worn than the rest (not much in that virgin engine ), just need to rotate the engine and observe the rocker movement as it collapses the spring down/lobe lifts up. OR you can do this yourself with this little trick (you owe me ), with the lower intake off, look at a lifter at a known good cylinder/intake, rotate the engine (wrench on the alternator and all spark plugs out should allow this, if not then turn crank pulley with a socket wrench) when that lifter gets to its highest point, then take it out, wipe off the oil on it then reinstall and mark with a felt tip maker the amount of the lifter body sticking up. Now remove that same lifter, put it into the suspected bad lifter hole/intake, again rotate the engine and note if the same amount of felt marker mark shows up. Now mark another known good exhaust lifter and check the other suspect lifter hole/cam lobe with it, let us know what you find!

 

If you need a cam, the TGP cam is the same as NA, and to answer your long awaited question, the engine’s computer will not like a different cam such as an “upgrade†AND, the stock turbo will restrict (on the exhaust side) any gains an upgraded cam would try to give. Tuning a chip will be a whole nother learning curve if you are wanting to get into this, making changes is easy, making the right changes takes the proper knowledge, a lot of time and the right tools, and some risk, even the pros and new cars from the auto manufactures are always saying the chip/program needs some more work to get things right (more tuning for full power for the pros vehicles, and volumes of books showing updates to stock chips for street cars). Summit sells SpeedPro/Federal Mogul which are less money than a GM valve train part and just as good if not better, I have many spare stock rockers if you need one, push rods and valves as well. Last, same with the cam, the chip will not know what to do with P&P heads, great opportunity I hear you big time, just hate to hear back on how bad it runs when the computer yells.

 

I have been extremely busy/again but will try to check back here for your results!

 

Jeff M

 

Also, Summit and Jegs (good as or better parts) will beat the price of a discounted GM offering (though nice of your guy to offer) and GMpartsdirect prices are NOT the price you pay, they get their profit from the huge S&H charges you only find on the Check-Out screen , right back up to the price for someone with an account at a GM dealer, about 25% off . You should really do the cam bearings while there, these are an item that do wear on the 3.1L motors, and to address that, I have found some teflon coated oversized cam racing bearings made up that will take care of any wearing out later, and their price is right around the same as a good set of Clevites!

 

Last, and best thing is you have a very young car in great condition that is worth some work to make her last for a long time, just think of owning a rusted high mileage TGP with body damage etc that needs this much work, those owners I feel for But I do feel for you having a low milelage engine that is messed up, sure is odd, I guess I would take the lifter that was on the failed lobe and take it apart to see why it stuck/became a solid lifter :? :shock: Seriously, it is very GOOD to know why it failed, gummed up means too many long interval oil changes, hard shit stuck in there means good to check the rest of the engine's condition from hard shit floating around, or if just a stuck/wedged lifter then just a faulty part.

 

Good luck, take enough time to cover all your bases, check back here with questions, lot of guys who have been there and did it too!!!!

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

Also this one has info to help, no time to trim it down :oops: Jeff M

 

Yea I said it (TGP has a NA cam), comfortable enough to not feel it come back and bite me , especially since from 1996 I have had a few owners get them read on a machine to confirm their values . Well, GM part number like these I don’t think about much since the price, just to say though don’t get Mellings Cam, theirs have dropped in quality control, last Mellings I got (last month) had rusted journals and lots of casting sand still left in it, guess I got what I paid for/$68 . Speedpro number is CS-763 and I am sure Summit can get it and ship to you up there. Same as with the lifters. As for the computer puking on an upgrade, yep, aside from knowing how computers act/react , had a local owner who did not tell me he was doing this in his rebuild then later complained how poorly it idled, hard it started/8 mpg etc, he did his heads too and upon testing/lame chip fix for now, was no faster with all this than stock, damn stock turbo was still restricting the added exhaust coming out of the worked engine, and he still had stock size injectors. I don’t need no stinking cam specs (funny if you seen Clint Eastwood’s film?), seen all the ones GM list, and everyone else, got some huge ass spread sheet of them, the one I picked for my over-mod’d TGP was the Crane Cams one for a mild turbo, more than enough since a huge turbo will force feed baby quite well, even with a stock cam!!!! Did you notice the statement “not for pollution controlled vehiclesâ€Â? not that many care but that one tells you things won’t be running proper for an ECM controlled car. Yep, higher rocker arm ratio is the same as upgraded cam, more lift, and some pro racers run nearly flat cam lobes but HUGE Rocker Ratios, easier on the valve train while still getting great lift! “Me no sell no parts to you mister†And as for “second guessingâ€Â, its just learning, best thing anyone can do is ask and look to learn, learning on your own can be painful and time consuming, I practice that a lot so others don’t have tooooooo .

 

Jeff M

[R Dubya]

Well I removed the heads today.. took some time to figure out how to get that pass side engine mount off and damn it was a hot day. Everything looks great below the heads, the gaskets were in good shape, no blow by or leaks that I could see, and the valves on cylinder #5 look fine, but with them off I will be taking them to a local machine shop and have them serviced and planed..

 

Checked the cam again, still no movement on that lobe, or non existent lobe, so this engine will be coming out sometime soon to do an inspection and cleaning..

 

I have a few questions regarding the removal of the block itself, and how difficult it is to re-install it with the tranny in. I've never done this before, but I've come this far and I will be doing the rest from here on out. Is it better to remove the tranny/engine combo? I assume removal of the MC is the only way to do that right?

 

I have an engine stand and I will be doing this work myself.. what is involved with this cleaning? Pistons and crank must be removed to do this? Can I wash this thing out myself? I have a 160 psi of compressed air and can get what's needed to wash this thing out, but again, never done this before. If the pistons are removed do I have to get new rings? What typed of oil should I use when all assembled and ready to run? How about the cam? I found a cam at advance for $100 bucks, but which is the best choice? I know I'm looking ahead here and still have some work cut out for me before I even open it up from the bottom.. but the cylinders look great, still can see the etching (xxx) on the walls, and it all moves great, I can't wait to get going on this, but .. first gotta remove that engine. With a hoist and heads off, how do I support the engine to remove it from the bay?