pbender Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Hi Folks, My Cutlass has been sitting in the grage most of the last year since it started making a really nasty sounding noise. Shawn (GnatGoSplat) and I have been discussing this off and on since the noise started, but I haven't actually gotten anywere in diagnosing the problem until the last month or so. Anyway, here are the symptoms I've noted: 1) There's a noise that sounds like a loud valve noise 2) When the engine is warm, it dies at idle (I think this is a function of engine speed, not temp) 3) The engine does not smoke at all, so it does not appear to be burning oil (it does have the typical O-Ring Leak). 4) The noise is not caused by an accessory (removed accessory belt, noise still present) 5) The timing belt is in excelent condition - there are no aparent cracks, and it appears to be tensioned correctly. 6) The spark plug wells on Cylinders 2,4,6 all have oil around the plugs. Cylinder 6 was the worst offender, with the oil nearly covering the plug. (I have not checked cylinders 1,3,5 yet). I have yet to do a compression test, since I'm affraid I'll loose the adapter I have in the deep spark plug wells (this is on my todo list). So now here's the question, What could be causing the above mentioend symptoms, and how difficult (or expensive) will it be to fix? The ideas Shawn and I have batted around to this point, that have not been ruled out, are: 1) Warn Valves/Cams/etc in the head(s). 2) Cracked/Damaged piston. 3) If the oil is really leaking into the spark plug wells, and not from oil spilled on the head, that would seem to indicate a head gasket leak. Thanks, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbender Posted May 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Oh, I forgot to mention, The only code that comes up from the computer is a 12. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4spdz34 Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 does it run rough at all? and oil around the sparkplugs would be bad cam cover gaskets or cam carrier gaskets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbender Posted May 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 does it run rough at all? At city street speeds it runs ok. I've driven it less than 100miles since it started making the noise, and the one time I got it up to highway speeds, I really babied it. It seemd to run OK at 60, but I didn't try to go higher. As I recall, acceleration was a little slugish, but I don't know remember if that was because I was babying it, or because the engine was acting funny. and oil around the sparkplugs would be bad cam cover gaskets or cam carrier gaskets Ok, that's good to know. That doesn't quite require complete head removal :? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey b Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 how loud is the noise? Also 91 and 92 3.4's had problems with stalling. It has been determined to be the injectors. Most 3.4's have valvetrain rattle. Get used to it. The oil on the plugs is most likely from the valve covers. Relatively easy fix for the fronts, for the backs you'll have to pull the plenum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbender Posted May 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 how loud is the noise? Also 91 and 92 3.4's had problems with stalling. It has been determined to be the injectors. Most 3.4's have valvetrain rattle. Get used to it. The oil on the plugs is most likely from the valve covers. Relatively easy fix for the fronts, for the backs you'll have to pull the plenum. This is MUCH louder than the normal valve noise. Having driven this car since 1998, and been under the hood of enough of these with Shawn, I know what NORMAL valve train noise sounds like. Injectors could be the culpret on the stalling, but it wasn't stalling before the noise started, so how do those events connect? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian89gp Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Any way of recording it? And can you pin-point it to one bank or the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topless94style Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Id say try a compression test for starters and I am with brian on pinpointing the noise along with a possible recording to help us help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbender Posted May 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Any way of recording it? And can you pin-point it to one bank or the other? Ok, I've put a 60 second (misserable) recording up on the web at http://www.math.ohiou.edu/~bender/engine.wav. The microphone was sitting on the firewall in front of the driver's side windshield wiper. You can't hear much beyond the clicking noise, though to my ear, the recording fairly acurately depicts whats going on. Playing this back on my laptop, the starter comes accross as static near the begining of the recording. I can try to get a better recording if needed. It sounds to me more like it's on the front bank (cyl 2,4 and 6) than the rear bank, though I could be wrong. Id say try a compression test for starters and I am with brian on pinpointing the noise along with a possible recording to help us help you. Compression test is on my to-do list, if I can find an extention tube that can reach the bottom of the spark plug wells from the top. The compression tester I have doesn't have the right thread pattern on it, though I have a short extention tube that does. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topless94style Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 :shock: sounds like it hurts. ....have you checked the oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbender Posted May 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 :shock: sounds like it hurts. ....have you checked the oil? Yeah, that was one of the first things I checked. It's filled up to the full line, though it does need to be changed. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4spdz34 Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 what happens when u rev the engine? does the noise go away under accel of rpms or on decel of rpms at all? i am thinking its one of these three. rod knock, collapsed lifter, broken valve spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbender Posted May 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 what happens when u rev the engine? does the noise go away under accel of rpms or on decel of rpms at all? i am thinking its one of these three. rod knock, collapsed lifter, broken valve spring. No, the noise doesn't go away at higher or lower RPMs. The frequency is proportional to RPMs. The recording I put up is earlier is at cold idle (the tach read between 1000 and 1250 RPMs). Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 it sounds more like it's lifter/valve related there bigtime, not quite the same knocking noise you get from a rod when it's having issues. it does sound real* bad tho. --Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4spdz34 Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 it could be a light rod knock, its hard to tell from half across the country, but i ahve heard rod knocks that are less than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey b Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 sounds just like my engine. I believe that it is spark knock like a mofo. Check your Crank Position Sensor. Mine simply broke while in the engine so the ECM didn't know when to send spark and eventually busted my piston Be careful removing it cause it may simply break off the rest of the way and fall into the crankcase. You might be able to check it by testing the amount of microvolts going to the ICM from the sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 Hey Paul, your car sounds worse than what I had imagined when you described it! It doesn't sound like lifter tick to me, it sounds worse. In that sound clip, I couldn't even hear the engine over that noise. Try Joey's advice and pray that fixes it. There's also a possibility that a cam may have jumped timing for whatever reason (they're not keyed on the sprocket), although I don't know if that would make a noise unless the pistons were hitting the valves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbender Posted May 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 Well, the Crank Possition sensor isn't something that had crossed my mind before, but I'll certainly check that out when I get home tonight. That would certainly be an easier fix than taking the engine appart. Thanks! Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbender Posted May 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2004 You might be able to check it by testing the amount of microvolts going to the ICM from the sensor. Ok, I checked the voltage coming out at the ICM. It looks like it was in the 30-50mv range (Hard to tell exactly, since I had to both crank the engine and watch the meter. In this case, I wish I had an analog meter available, since it was difficult to see the moving decimal point). After the adventure I had pulling that plug out of the ECM, I'm not sure I am ambidextrous enough to fix this If I have to go at it from the bottom of the motor. So are we back to a valve,lifter, or rod problem, or is this an indication that the crank sensor is dead? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slade901 Posted May 9, 2004 Report Share Posted May 9, 2004 To me it sounded like the crankshaft and camshaft oil passage ways to the bearings are not getting enough oil (partially blocked). Try the CKPS to see if that fixes the problem. This is my diagnostics and procedure if I encounter that problem. That sound is like our 1995 Ford F150 (flush did not solve the problem; replaced the oil pump, oil pump strainer/filter; temporary 5W30 fix the problem) and Dodge 2001 Ram (flush; temporary 5W30 fixed the problem). 1. Fill the oil crankcase with 1 quart of GUNK Motor Tune-Up Flush in addition to the existing oil. Start the vehicle for 5 minutes and turn off the engine. Does the ticking noise disappear? Or Not? If the ticking noise is gone. Use 5W30 oil temporarily and see if the ticking disappears. Do an oil change after 500 or 1000 miles with thicker oil 10W30 or higher. If the ticking noise is still there, replace the oil pump, oil pump strainer/filter. Clean the inside of the oil pan for gunk and debris. Use 5W30 oil temporarily and see if the ticking disappears. Do an oil change after 500 or 1000 miles with thicker oil 10W30 or higher. If the ticking noise is still there, try a thicker oil than 10W30 and if the problem is still there, you got a worn main bearing, valve, camshaft problem, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted May 9, 2004 Report Share Posted May 9, 2004 spark knock sounds more like you've got marbles sitting in your cylinders bouncing 'round when it's running. Rod knock is usually a defined klunking sound that resonates thru the entire block (note that's USUALLY, not alwyas) Lifter Tick is usually a clicking type sound from the top of the motor these are "usual" sounds of these problems but not are not always* what they sound like. not sure what it'd sound like if you droped a valve in there, but I'd imagine it'd sound MUCH worse. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey b Posted May 9, 2004 Report Share Posted May 9, 2004 I'm not sure of the voltage amount that you are supposed to get, I'll try to find out. Keep this in mind in the case that it broke. When mine broke, it literally broke. It was hanging in place by some type of cloth with the magnet. I pulled on it like a mofo and it ripped and fell into the oil pan. If you have to replace it don't let that happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gp crazy Posted May 9, 2004 Report Share Posted May 9, 2004 IT sounds like it's in the upper part of the engine! IM thinking one of the cam gears is out of adjustment! which one is it who know's? may be the belts look good from the top. but may have jumped? Why are'nt they keyed? does any body modify them so they are keyed ? (sound's like a good idea) just my thoughts jeff b good luck also to fix the o-ring seal you have to pull the rear head ! sorry ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbender Posted May 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Well, I went ahead and changed the oil (on Slade901's recomendation I went ahead and used the tune up flush - It needed the oil change done anyway), and there wasn't any change in the noise. I'm still trying to find a way I can get my fat inflexable arms through or around something to get to the CKPS in the hope that might fix it. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbender Posted June 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Just a quick update on this project. I finally got the car back together after pulling the CKPS and Knock sensors out through the wheel well. Unfortunately, there wasn't any change in engine noise, so It looks Like I'm going to have to start over with something on the top side of the motor. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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