something rudefyet said about turbochargers..\Power Upgrades

[DaveFromColorado]

not that I own a TGP, but I was picturing this in my head, I cam imagine that the non turbo rear exhaust manifold would bolt up, and you could use the downpipe hole from that manifold and modify it for an external wastegate ... that was just one Idea I had, I don't know if it'd work, but it might -

 

the only real benefit that'd have would be better boost control (no boost creep, no wastegate activation until full boost is made ...)

 

Also if you were going to do the top end swap, wouldn't it be more beneficial to do the 3400 (push rod) top end swap, I've heard the heads flow better and such?

 

TurboGTU: ever hear of http://www.turboford.org - I've got the oval port head - not the D port on my 'Stang and when I rebuild my motor, I'm gonna get the flow numbers from my head.

 

--Dave

[rudefyet]

ok i kinda came up witht this in my head..an idea...critique it if you like

 

Take a TGP...swap a 200? 3100 top end on it (the one with 175hp)...and with the efficency that top end brings it should allow you to run low 14's on the stock turbo setup

 

That being said...up the boost pressure to around 12psi combined with the better flowing heads a 13 second TGP is well within reason...from my estimates with the newer 3100 top end and 12 psi of boost a tgp would be running mid 13's..of course it prolly takes more then just a top end swap

 

Now someone on here...i believe dtroniko (sp?) has a T28 setup running 15psi...a turbo setup similar to that...with the newer heads etc...a whatever is needed to make it capable of handling 15psi...might make it possible to break 13 and run high 12's

 

But then again....that would be A LOT of work and also granted the tranny holds up to around 340hp...also i'm not sure about 15psi in general on a 3.1...although...if someone has so much $ and free time they could manage 18psi with the newer heads and a larger turbo... mid 12's are possible...and with 20psi you could hit low 12's

 

I'll be happy to have my TGP running 14's and maybe someday 13's...but for the true enthusiast i'd say it is possible

[Guest TurboSedan]

not that I own a TGP, but I was picturing this in my head, I cam imagine that the non turbo rear exhaust manifold would bolt up, and you could use the downpipe hole from that manifold and modify it for an external wastegate ... that was just one Idea I had, I don't know if it'd work, but it might -

 

--Dave

 

i had thought about this also, but never got much of a response. Shane mentioned that one bank of cylinders might run lean compared to the other side...would like more feedback from others tho...

 

http://www.netavalanche.com/tgp/viewtopic.php?t=1958

[DaveFromColorado]

yeah, I'd imagine it would lean out one bank, but it was just a thought I had ...

 

--Dave

[Guest TurboSedan]

allow me to stray for a second - the Mustang I drive is a 1980 Mustang Turbo, with the old carb/turbo setup, it's a draw thru- much like the older t-type/gn/tta's thought I'd mention because you don't see too many of the Carb/turbo's anymore, people all opted for fuel injection.

 

 

i think that is great to have input from others with different turbo cars, more info & ideas passed around that might work on a different (TGP) setup! i myself am a Turbo Dodge nut my GTS has a blow-thru port fuel injected & intercooled 2.5L running 12psi right now looking forward to a 3-bar cal and 18psi with that car, then i'm really gonna need a Quaife and a big NPR 'cooler meanwhile the TGP engine screams for attention as it sits on the engine stand in the garage...

[Jeff M]

Alright, figured if I opened my mouth and dumped some info there would be a lot of replies/questions and ideas/dreams, and me repeating some of the info already stated in the past, but here goes ;-). The TGP turbo is not one prone to boost creep, not enough turbo there to do this, even the wastegate spring keeps things well wasted as far as too high a boost, meaning the stock spring pretty much has us at 12 psi with wastegate solinoid unplugged, from 4,000 rpms up, below that we can spike to 16 psi at 2,500 rpms down to 14 to 15 psi up till 3,800 rpms. Tighten the wastegate rod (and detonate from too much boost) and you can get 16 psi to 20 psi, but some damn hot thin air. Bigger turbo yes, more mass usable air, and some tests to see how much can be run with the stock 22lb injectors and a new fuel pump/filter, then after finding and recording those limits, go with larger injectors, tune them and find the limits no longer based on any fuel delivery limitations.

 

On the intakes, I have always liked the long runners of the 3.1L that make lots of great low end torque especially for a 3.1L displacement engine, and to use this peak VE area at low rpms to provide in the end some powerful exhaust pulses, that spool up turbos like mad, even the bigger turbos that I have run have not shown lag any more (if you want to call it much lag) than the stock one. So, we use the long runner intakes and the cam timing events matched to those runners to feed the low end to mid area of the power band/rpms, and use a turbo to fill the mid to high rpms areas, an excellent compliment for a nice fat wide power band, one that does not have one peak sweet spot area like so many engines. Aside for this concept/using these intakes, is the stock heads needing some help to do their part better, and flow numbers here show a ton of hard ass work and some damn lucky chances at meeting the best in the business on this topic (I have posted the link at the end here, don’t want to loose too many people till they are done reading this post). Back to intakes, theory is great, book smarts helps, but real testing is your bread and butter, but it cost to earn the results from those tests, and once again I am the only one to go this length, and to release hard evidence to set things straight, and to guide me in the kits I will recommend from those tests!!! The link below also shows the flow data of the TGP intake with TB (quashing two birds with one stone), aside from the great combo of the long runner TGP intakes and a bigger/higher hp turbo, and a (stock) cam matched with valve events accordingly, another intake IF TESTED BETTER and for this example the 3100s, would loose low rpm torque rich power from shorter intakes and as well less power to spool up a bigger turbo. Add the 3100’s different length/size runners and you need the 3100 cam or an upgrade of it to make it work proper at all. Then someone has to tackle this with a chip as the VE tables of these different intakes have changed everything! Then the fun of getting the EGR, Vacuum line, Throttle cables, intake pipe etc, to go back on, this is an awful lot of time and money that could be spent on other more matched upgrades. Take a look at the flow numbers of the UltraFlow heads verses the test of the intake with stock/upgraded TB, pretty damn close :!: So believe or just do this 3100 swap and don't bother me again

 

Back to making progress. Dave, your golden rule is one to live by, and one I state another way in hopes it catches: Make it run right before you make it run faster!†When I hear guys spending tons of money on custom paint, stereo upgrades and such things, or looking for big ass turbo, headers, downpipes etc, I feel more for these 14 year old cars, and feel less when the owners complain when it needs fixing , when a lot of times some simple preventive maintenance would have saved a lot of headaches, time and money, and I have posted in great lengths (who me ) many key areas and the ways to do the work. Enough grumbling. TurboGTU, check the link below also for info on flow numbers, and in regards to your boost creep (with a TGP motor??) that would be your fuel mixture getting too rich/not enough ignition-ignition problem, also seen this when someone takes out too much timing in the chip, no mention of your exhaust system either. God910, quit your bitchen at the engine (and tranny and and!) You are right about the idea to relieve some exhaust pressure as a last ditch getto fix 8) , you're thinking better when your coming up with ideas, good ones too, keep them coming, more positive motivated heads are always better!!

 

http://www.turbograndprix.com/new_page_2.htm

 

Jeff M

[TurboGTU]

Well since I have not intercooler...just straight pipe from the turbo...Im thinking it was the hot boosted air expanding giving the impression of boost creap. I had set my boost to 11.5 and was craping to 12-13 slowly. Then when I ported the wastegate everything seemed fine.

 

I did however lower my peak timming a lot cuz I had no intercooler and at that boost I was getting alot of knock.

So it was a little of both I guess that caused boost creap.

My ignition is working fine with new stock copper plugs and new wires.

After I had ported my wastegate...I did however change the chip calibrations...(I should have left them the same to compare...though I still have the chip but didn't mark it..duh!..I am now)..I had readvanced the timing on top just a few off the stock chip. I did get a little knock when it was warm out at 11.5psig.

 

My exhaust is bottlenecked 2in at the up pipe and 2 1/4 all the way to the Borla 3in muffler. I will replace it with 2.5.

[herb427sc]

How much is a pair of GEN II UltraFlow heads???

[Jeff M]

TurboGTU, thanks for the detailed reply, sounds like you got some good ideas. Since your setup is different in a few ways, might well be as you said, and to let you know from doing final destructive testing on these engines (GOD I spend a lot of money testing!!), it takes quite a bit of knocking to really damage these engines, sustained is the worst, but very brief high numbers will go without problems, checking plugs is a good thing, bad knock will collapse a plug gap, or flatten the plug all together. I ran some cheaper SpeedPro/Federal Mogul pistons and those went way faster than the better/stock Mahles. 3 to 5 degrees of knock here and there is doable, 7 to 10 is getting risky if held there for more than a second, 10 to 15 degrees is getting damn close to blown/destructed sparkplugs, maybe a head gasket, and if sustained, pistons start to heat up a lot and will melt. Rods have always survived, rod bearings have faired well too, but I am not saying to knock is ok, just a feeler on what my testing has shown, you are doing the best and that is to keep the knocking down and short lasting/foot out of it right away!! As for timing, stock timing at 10 psi is too much mostly in warm/hot weather, do your same commendable keeping an eye on things when the temps rise this summer. From what you say, hot non/inter-cooled air has less oxygen molecules so same fuel amount/settings will get rich (though is supposed to help cool/latent heat of evaporization but there are limits there too), add to this less timing to be smart/safe, and your exhaust size, I think you nailed your boost creep causes, and sounds like your fixes came to the rescue nicely 8) . And glad to hear you are not going to run a 3 inch all the way from the turbo, you got to maintain exhaust gas velocity as well, even in a turbo exhaust!!

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

How much is a pair of GEN II UltraFlow heads???

 

Well, since an engine with a different flowing head will need chip tuning, maybe larger injectors, turbo that does not back things up, going to have to wait for those to be resolved, but of course if that is not a concern (heads will fit a lot of 60 degree V6s) then I can work up a price. But before I do that I need to list out the rest of the good stuff in them, all these other efforts round out this head as a serious killer, and I would prefer to not steal this thread with something I am selling, but will put it on the same web page link if you are still interested!

 

Jeff M

[DaveFromColorado]

if you're not gonna be running an intercooler, I'd HIGHLY recomend using a water/alcohol injection kit.

 

A friend of mine made one using a pump that when activated would pressurize to 60psi and then hold it there (shutting off the pump untill the pressure droped below 59 psi) a hobbs pressure switch, a few relays, a system arm switch, a lot of fuel hose, and a N2O dry fogger nozzle aimed upstreem and a few jets so he could change the ammount of his water/alky mix (aimed towards the turbocharger to help with atomization of the water/alcohol mixture) and he was making a solid 230 hp to the rear wheels at 22lbs of boost running 91 premuim pump gas (unleaded) on a 4-banger with no intercooler, and no detectable knock.

 

This may be something worth looking into, I can get pictures of the setup if you'd like.

 

--Dave.

[DaveFromColorado]

almost forgot to mention, He's running a T-03/04 Hybird turbocharger.

 

--Dave.

[rudefyet]

How much is a pair of GEN II UltraFlow heads???

 

Well, since an engine with a different flowing head will need chip tuning, maybe larger injectors, turbo that does not back things up, going to have to wait for those to be resolved, but of course if that is not a concern (heads will fit a lot of 60 degree V6s) then I can work up a price. But before I do that I need to list out the rest of the good stuff in them, all these other efforts round out this head as a serious killer, and I would prefer to not steal this thread with something I am selling, but will put it on the same web page link if you are still interested!

 

Jeff M

 

Just reading through your posts again...um...I'd be interested in Gen III ultraflow heads for my TGP when i get it

 

But i was wondering...if i just swap the heads onto a 3.1 without chip tuning, different turbo etc...will i see any significant power gains? with the stock chip or your topgun 160 chip?

 

My goal is to change turbos...and alot of other things and start modifying my own chips...but do i really have to modify the chip everytime i change the flow of the engine?

 

Also...are Gen III heads roller rocker heads?

 

and last but not least...how hard is it to tune your own chips?

 

Sorry for all the questions...I'm just at a loss on how to deal with the stupid engine computer

[DaveFromColorado]

I can't answer whether or not you can keep the same chip when you change heads and such but I can tell you...

 

Tuning your own chip (from what I understand) isn't that dificult, if you have the right tools, IE a program that will emulate the rom so you can do some "live" tuning, a scan tool so you can watch the diagnostic port and some of the outputs there, and most helpful, a dyno with an A/F meter, so you can tune much more accurately.

 

if you've got lots of real world tuning expirence, you can sometimes tune with just your stock O2 sensor and LOTS of highway, but if you're new to it, being on a Dyno is always much more easy (hell, even if you are an expirenced tuner, dyno's make the job go much faster)

 

There are so many different things you can change on the chip, if you are working with just setting the PE tables, setting them should be fairly easy, if you want to set cruising and part throtle tables that's gonna take way more time, and you'll want to find a "loaded mustang dyno" (mustang being the brand of dyno, not just for that car) they use an eddy current brake system that will hold it at certian RPM's so you can set part throtle calibrations.

 

I may have already mentioned this before, or maybe not, but I was thinking if you had shorter intake runners, you'd have the back pulses from the intake valves nearly eliminated, plus you end up with more of a "vacuum chamber" which turns into a "pressure chamber" under boost, and it't very helpful on turbo/supercharged cars, granted you have a LITTLE more boost lag, but it's never much.

 

I know on my Z-34 I want to gut out the upper plenum (or an extra plenum) to see if that will help me out a little more on the high-end, I have no idea what it's gonna do for me, if anything, but junkyards are awesome.

 

--Dave

[Jeff M]

I may have already mentioned this before, or maybe not, but I was thinking if you had shorter intake runners, you'd have the back pulses from the intake valves nearly eliminated, plus you end up with more of a "vacuum chamber" which turns into a "pressure chamber" under boost, and it't very helpful on turbo/supercharged cars, granted you have a LITTLE more boost lag, but it's never much.

 

I know on my Z-34 I want to gut out the upper plenum (or an extra plenum) to see if that will help me out a little more on the high-end, I have no idea what it's gonna do for me, if anything, but junkyards are awesome.

 

--Dave

 

Too dang busy to enjoy this post, so grabbed some info from my notes, basically give and take no matter what you do long as you are talking NA engines, Long runners like an L98 has great torque but little hp, LT1 has short runners with great high rpm hp but little bottom end, LS1 is right in the middle, depends on where you want your power to happen, and some of that is dictated by the cam and heads used: very worked heads making lots of (mainly) high lift CFM likes an aggresive cam that not only opens valves more for this but includes it's power band sweet-spot in higher rpms only, then torque converter stall with tranny and differential gearing all play well if they all agree, if any one of these is not allowed to play, game over! But most all of this goes out the window when you are force fed, and to that I allow the big names to state this (at the bottom of this quote):

 

Long inlet pipes may also be utilized to improve volumetric efficiencies at certain engine speeds due to the inertia and elasticity of the gases in the inlet pipe and cylinder. Long pipes with smaller cross sectional area generally improve low speed performance at the expense of high speed power while shorter pipes of larger cross sectional area favor high speed at the expense of decreased low speed performance. Long pipes with small diameter/bore ratios improve volumetric efficiency at low piston speeds due to a high level of kinetic energy built up in the pipe at the end of the induction process, but at high speeds flow restrictions overcome this kinetic energy advantage and volumetric efficiency falls. Long pipes with large diameter/bore ratios move this power band up to intermediate piston speeds, but also suffer at high speeds due to the slow acceleration of the air mass.

 

Ram tuning of the induction system: This phenomenon is based on the resonance of the columns of air in the pipes by selecting lengths of induction pipes such that they resonate at a fundamental frequency close to that at which the inlet valves open. This aids the pressure wave to drive the charge into the cylinder, much like supercharging without actually using an external blower.

 

With artificially (externally) supercharged or turbocharged applications, inlet tuning does not offer as much benefit as compared with naturally aspirated engines since the inlet pressure is artificially raised substantially above nominal inlet pressure already.

 

[ubong Winter 99 ME672 lecture Week 11Part B]

Jeff M

[DaveFromColorado]

... hummm.. now I gotta figure out how to calculate the frequency of the valves, and see if I can tune the runners for that...

 

 

I've got more to think about now...

 

--Dave.

[Jeff M]

Time to get a frequency analyzer 8) . Some of that same type of equipment was used, then more calculations used from proven tests done on hundreds of hand models (proto-types) and better that that with computer modeling, which is about all that is used by the OEMs and high end shops now. Actually the frequency can be said as you spoke about, the air pulse tuning/its ramming peak period relative to the timing of the intake valve event. A wide/long frequency will work well with a longer intake event, with matched peak flows of each, some retarding of the valve timing to air pulse to get more oomph as air starts to traverse the intake valve/seat area, but any intake/cam setup to use the ramming effects is limited to a rather localized rpm range. If you want to get some info, cheat and look at the cams used with different intake runners, like the 3.1 verses the 3100. Each are modeled for each other by GM. Then grab these specs from a 3400, anything you can find that provides info regarding the intake and cam specs, no sense reinventing the wheel (or the info that it took to make it). But really, tuning all this is best left for those with big bucks and big equipment (you can still do it, does sound fun!!), there is just too much to it to even get lucky at a good custom match. But turbo (any forced induction) helps us a lot to overcome the give and take of limited power peak ramming with such small sweet spots given, and they are small relative to the rpm band most all engines have/run in, that is why Honda and others came out with variable valve timing/runner lengths a while ago, one for torque/low rpm and one for hp/higher rpms, and even more as advances iron out a production electronic control valve motor/actuator, lots of goodies being worked on that will trickle down to us…maybe to you younger car owners as I and not as young any more . So, the long torquey runners of the 3.1L will help peak ram air tuning at low rpms provide us with some great exhaust gas velocities to spool up larger turbo upgrades (I am whipped/tired, don’t even know if that was understandable grammar :shock: ), might not get much lag with even a T4 if I stretch the truth a little here ….so I got to get back to those turbo upgrade phone calls and quit having fun!

 

ps: (Not working at Healey's (sp?) any more?)

pss: get Advanced Engine Technology by Heinz Heisler, and Internal Combustion Fundamentals ("fun" but NOT really "Fundamental" ) by John Heywood, or anything from David Vizard, great books, great authors, there are others, and you may already have some you like, sounds like you have had some good exposure, its like NOS for the brain!

Later!!

 

Jeff M

[DaveFromColorado]

I'm gonna start lookin' for those books.

 

believe this or not, much of what I've learned has been the try/fail method of tuning my mustang, nothin' like a carb'd turbo car to make your brain fail ... I've tried all sorts of porting combo's and such with that car, and I found that a runner length in that car of no more then 1.5" was the best all 'round for it, where as the carb'd NA cars wanted at least a 10" runner with a 1" spacer under the carb... humm...

 

I think I'm gonna be checking out these books, engineering is more where I want to be.

 

 

anyhow, I'm gonna start to expirement here, since I want to turbocharge my Z anyhow, I'm thinking that I'm just gonna go with the gutting of the intake, and save the multi-length runner Idea (if you saw my post on 60degreeV6) to someone else, altho I may still try to develop something and sell it to the LQ1 guys.

 

Haley's shop is still a good place, I don't really work there anymore, kinca confusing, but I may be forced to go back, as I loved the work, and I'm tired of tryin' to find something with decent enough benefits.

 

 

--Dave.