Crossover install done.

[SantaCruzTGP]

So, I finished the crossover install, time consuming but easy with Jeffs instructions. So, I finished the install, but soon after firing her up to see if the problems were gone....Nope. All the same symptoms still exist. Eratic idle, running super rich, smoking, shit! I'm done with it, it's going to Pontiac! I don't know what else to do, everything looks to be fine but still running like shit. What could be some of the problems? I was thinking fuel pump, fuel lines, but since it's spilling gas out the exhaust I figure it's getting gas, so then I think, well it's got to be something with the air flow, or computer.

 

Also, unable to get in one of the exhaust exit pipe bolts in the turbo, I got 4, but the fifth isn't cooperating. What a bitch!

[TGPilot]

Hold on to your wallet if you go to Pontiac. :shock:

 

Did you check your Fuel Pressure Regulator? Jeff has a good way to check it. Did you do the idle relearn? If the IAC is way out of wack it can run rich at idle and be irratic also. Did you replace the O2 sensor when you did the cross-over? If not, do that first before you go to Pontiac. With a cracked cross-over your O2 sensor is sure to be fouled. Next thing I would look at is the injectors. You may have 1 or more that are shorted and running full on causing your rich condition.

 

The smoking could also be the turbo oil return line which is a common culprit seen in many TGP's.

 

We are here to help at a cost that is much lower than the Pontiac dealer!!

[SantaCruzTGP]

First off, thanks for the help!!!!!

I decided to hold off on the 02 sensor till it got to pontiac, I could easily replace but, If I put in the new one won't it get ruined with it running exessively rich? Or could this be my problem? I'll go home at lunch and put in the new O2 sensor and see if that changes anything. As for the Fuel pressure regulator, is that on the left of the throttle body? How do you check it Jeff? Where is the IAC? I'll check that also.

The oil return line got replaced with a new one.

I didn't replace the o-ring in the distributor shaft cover, because I didn't want to remove the trottle body and fuel lines, there was alot of oil down there. I attempted it, but the fuel lines wouldn't let me pull the gear housing out.

-Jeromy

[Guest Anonymous]

The IAC is the black piece going in the side of the throttle body. It's the one towards the top. Two torx bolts hold it in.

 

Here's a pic of it...

 

[Jeff M]

First off, thanks Kenny for stepping up to help me and the S-Cruzer out 8) , I have been out of town a bit then as always happens, scrambling to do catch-up :shock: . Kenny is right on, keep your horses at bay till you do a little checking first before you get too freaked out, and go to the dealer . Besides, the dealer can have challenges too not working on many TGPs before! BUT you got a ton of guys that know the TGP way better than most dealers and repair garages 8) ! AND it seldom is as bad as it seems at first. But first you have to understand, this is a 14 year old car, TGP or not is might need some other work to finish up a good running car, but NOT like other 14 year old cars, this one as I think you know, is a very special and rare Turbo Grand Prix, that looks like you bought the top of the line sports coupe from the Excitement Division of Pontiac (UNLIKE the 1997-2003 GTP, or worse the newer/dumb looking 2006 GTP, sorry to those owners!). Your doing the crossover pipe is the most common item to cause problems with the running of the TGP engine, and was the ONLY cheap low bid item on the car, so now that you have that problem done, time for a little troubleshooting (for us ) and fixing to get you on the road to enjoying this car like many owners do!

 

Most common for any older car, especially one that has run alcohol laced gas (most everyone has it, and alcohol EATS Fuel Pressure Regulators/FPR) is to check the FPR, super easy test if you are someone who did the pipe install on his own!! Look at the top of the throttle body and find the hard plastic vacuum line nearest to the front of the car/closest to you when hanging over the front end. Follow this vacuum line down to just when it goes under the upper intake, there you will see a rubber T shaped section, that is hooked into the top of the FPR, a small round aluminum canister. Pull the rubber T off the FPR port, pushing it off to the side just a little and enough to fit on a 12†or longer piece of rubber vacuum line to the open (gas dripping) port on the FPR. Now suck on the other end of the vacuum line to test for the ability of the FPR to hold a vacuum but be prepared if it leaks to suck up some fuel so easy, any lack of holding a vacuum and you will know it quick, and will have found your problem causing the smoking, running super rich and erratic idle!! Let us KNOW if you found this problem and I can walk you through the FPR install, just did one so fresh in my memory, and not as long of a job as the xover pipe!!

 

To wrap up, your new o2 sensor, turbo oil drain line and crossover pipe will take care of the common smoking problems, but the FPR can still be another cause thought not as common. As for taking off the cruise control, you are right, it allows better access and more area to work in when taking off the bitchy turbo down pipe bolts, but as important, allows much better access and open area in removing the delicate turbo and downpipe heat blankets!!! The instructions you had told of the tricky to see 10mm nut at the bottom of the cruise control bracket, that a ¼ driver will access with no problems once you see the 10mm nut. And as stated just leave that one nut off when putting the cruise back on as you already know the top two 10mm bolts are on snug and is more than enough to hold the cruise control on (as confirmed by several TGPs local here and the many who have installed my pipe). Regarding your 5th turbo downpipe bolt, the instructions say that after doing the crossover pipe install and going on to the turbo install, to always put in the bottom most turbo to downpipe bolt first, just starting the threads and no further, then moving the turbo around to get a good start on the threads of the rest of the turbo bolts, leaving all of these loose to allow starting all the turbo bolts before you begin tightening them down. So I am not sure which bolt you are missing but you can loosen the others to allow enough play to get this last bolt started, do not force it ever (or any turbo bolt), use anti-seize to lube the threads so it will go in with your fingers easier!! Try different angles to insert the bolt into the hole, meaning the turbo housing threads are a little recessed allowing you to feel the two holes are aligned when the bolt goes in, and up to the female threads, then turn to get things started, though you may have to lift up or push over the downpipe to get things aligned proper before the threads will cooperated with no argument! If you are still have problems, I would take one of those turbo bolts and put it to the grinder, or secure its head in a vise and use a file, but either way grind a tapered point to the end of the threads, so when you insert the bolt in the hold, it will better find it way in proper, BUT you will have to clean of the threads so they are still open and clean, a hacksaw blade will help there, or a very small file used on its edge at a 45 degree angle, but when done lube the threads with anti-seize or at least some grease to allow things to get started. Let us know how it goes!!

 

Well, more catch-up to do, will try to check back but all this info should get you much further along if not running good, I hope!

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

First off, thanks for the help!!!!!

I decided to hold off on the 02 sensor till it got to pontiac, I could easily replace but, If I put in the new one won't it get ruined with it running exessively rich? Or could this be my problem? I'll go home at lunch and put in the new O2 sensor and see if that changes anything. As for the Fuel pressure regulator, is that on the left of the throttle body? How do you check it Jeff? Where is the IAC? I'll check that also.

The oil return line got replaced with a new one.

I didn't replace the o-ring in the distributor shaft cover, because I didn't want to remove the trottle body and fuel lines, there was alot of oil down there. I attempted it, but the fuel lines wouldn't let me pull the gear housing out.

-Jeromy

 

One last hit here before I go, hold on doing the IAC for now, sounds more like running this rich is the FPR as stated above. You can also hold on the new o2 somewhat, depending on your tests of the FPR, but should be installed here soon, and rich fuel will take it's tool on a new sensor but not right away!

 

So, have at it, and hang tough, we will get there.

 

Jeff M

[SantaCruzTGP]

Once again, thanks for all the input...Jeff and others, Kudos!

I'll keep you informed, I've got a list of things to check thanks to you guys.

-Jeromy

 

I documented every section of the work with digital photos, so If any of you guys need pictures, just request them. I even went as far as taking a picture of the turbo and crossover pipe installed together before they went into the car. I really want to create an all extensive website on the restoration of my car. I guess I've got the beginnings of one.

[SantaCruzTGP]

...Also the bolt that is missing is not the lower bolt, I installed it first just like the instuctions said. The bolt that's missing is on the lower right hand side, easily accesible but not threading right. The rest are threaded in perfect, creating what I hope to be a good seal for the exhaust.

[SantaCruzTGP]

So, I took the t-fitting off the FPR and attached another vacuum line. I sucked on it and it definitely holds a vacuum. So, I then replaced the 02 sensor and took off the IAC, looked at it, cleaned it, and reattached it.

Started the car, it started, sputtered, smoked died, I turned it over, turned it over and turned it over again, now it won't even start.

[god910]

*coughs* injectors */coughs*

 

I tell you these cars know when you want to drive them the most, and at that time, they self destruct the injectors. Unfortunately, the upper intake must come off to check them, but IMHO, it's well worth it. Both of my TGP's needed injectors. Now one is running Accel 24#ers, and the other is running 3800S2 injectors. Quick question for a few people. I was looking somewhere online, and I think I saw the FPR for like $190!!!!! Is that correct, or was it a mis-listing, or wrong part?

[Adam S.]

You know this sounds exacly like what I had. Crossed spark plug wires on the coil.

 

It's an easy enough check.

 

Adam S.

[Jeff M]

Ok, with that out of the way, onto more. Since you have a nice new vacuum line set for the TB and all, time to make sure the same vacuum line we worked with on the FPR test is hooked up properly meaning check the end where it hooks to the MAP sensor. On the top of the upper intake, at the back/firewall side of the engine, near the alternator is your MAP sensor, you should have been working with the MAP sensor to remove the old vacuum line and installing the new. Pull the black metal U-Clip and carefully pull the MAP away from the intake so you can inspect that the vacuum connections is good, as well as the 3 wire electrical connector. Correct any problems found there but I am wondering if this is a new to you TGP and the owner had problems like this before he/she sold it????, if so I would pull off the electrical connector to the MAP, being careful to bend the connector tab no more than necessary to get the connector to come off, use your other hand to grab the sides of the connector and wiggly it out of the MAP body. Look for missing pins, damaged pins and wires damaged before the connector. If you found and correcting any problems, then fire it up, if not then and everything looked good then still try to start the car by putting your foot to the floor and cranking it, once it starts use the throttle to try and maintain an idle, your richness “may†clear up once you can keep some revs, if so then injectors are most likely leaking. If not then need to do some more checking such as ohming out the injectors which I will explain first. Down next to the ECM, find near the Convenience Center one small 2-wire connector and two 10-way connectors, carefully separate (don’t break the tab) the 10-way Black Connector. On the Black Connector with Male Pin Ends, ohm from upper right to lower left, record reading, now take ohm reading lower right to upper left (reversed/other injector feed), record reading, that is Black/Pink to Light Blue and Pink/Black to Green wires. Since there are 3 injectors to a side, and you now have an ohm reading on both sides, do some math to find out how bad the injectors windings are. From Shawn and confirming from the book, and using 12.2 ohms as an average good injector, 12.2 ohms divided by 3 injectors equals 4.06 ohm/4 ohms. If the reading is less than 4 ohms then, there is one or some injectors that are dropping in ohms/going bad as all Multecs made prior to 1993 will do (NOT TGP specific problem!), new Multec injectors made after will not have this common failing problem. Next, since you got fuel, we will stay with electrical for now, time to check the plug wires by ohming them out, checking them for breaks when taking off and as well, make sure they are run to the proper spark plugs, refer to the small print on the top of the front clip for coil and spark plug wire arrangement. With the plug wires off, pull the plugs, check the condition to see if all have the same appearance (the tip, ground strap and ceramic), also check for a crack in the ceramic in the upper body where the spark plug boot goes over, also plugs should be AC Delco R42LTS. If the appearance is different between these, this will fall in line with leaking injectors and some with low ohms, clean and regap (maybe more but later with that/keeping this short?). If everything there checked out good, then either bad spark plug coil, ignition module or crank sensor, improperly seated MEMCAL, bad ECM grounds, but get those other things above checked out first, and any other good tips that might pop up here later today.

 

Good luck, do keep us informed as to your findings on each test, very important when moving forward, we don’t like skipping things and having to move backwards !!

 

Jeff M

[SantaCruzTGP]

Jeff, I sat down all night and today tinkering with the TGP and everything just kept checking out. They said the computer is bad. So I'm having them replace it. I started a new post...on it. Well with that new piece, the car should be like new!!! Hopefully. I'll update on the other post. Jeff, Again, big thanks for all the help and emails. Thanks to all the others who contributed also.