god910 Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Is how many miles I drove the new TGP until it rolled to a stop. I had to get home to watch my little boy, but I managed to call my dad and have him watch the kid for awhile. I took my timing light, and fuel press. gauge to the car's current resting place (only about 3 miles from the house too SHIT!!!!) Key on/engine off I have ~35 psi. key to run I have 40 psi. I have spark at 2 of the 3 coils. I thought I had the right tools to remove the stock air "mile" er, box, but I didn't and that thing takes up a ton of room. Couldn't get to the 3rd coil, but I figure 2 is good enough to at least idle. It was running fine, then I stopped at a cafe to get a bite to eat, when I came out it started and ran fine. Then it just all of a sudden died. Restarted hard, but did eventually. Going down the road it won't take hardly any pedal and starts bucking. 3500 RPM and it wants to shut down. A few more miles down the road and it just shuts off I down shift to 1st and it will only give me enough RPM to steer. Pull into spot, and that's where it be now. My current thought is injectors, or ECM. When you try to start it now, it tries for a couple secs, then that's it. You can crank till your blue in the face. I have a spare ECM (spare as in, the one that Black Sunshines LIVES off of.) I will try that tomorrow, then if that doesn't work, I will have it towed home for injectors. At least I never sold those Accel 24#ers. Also, no short arming this one, so if anyone is interested in those aluminum rail mounts for Accel/other non crappy GM injectors I should have them soon. (But damn I hope not, I don't want to have to tear into this before enjoying it a bit first.) Wish me luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Ok, bummer though, good info on what happended and such, but no background, or at least not enough for me. First sorry I don't remeber all you may of said in past posts, if you knew how many long detailed emails I get fixing more troubles than this with tons of other TGP owners, you would understand why I ask for your background At least it's good to have it all in one place while we finger you out So, is it all stock, original to the car/not swapped in, any major work done before it's maden voyage, parts that are new etc, gimme gimme Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idbeast Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Sounds like a crank sensor or a DIS module to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted February 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Nope, I just picked it up yesterday. This car is extremely stock. The only things that I know of that aren't are the x-over and chip, and he's replaced 3 of the injectors in the past w/ new stock. I drove it on Sunday and it ran great, it had a SLIGHT studder around 3 to 4K like mine did with a coil, but almost unnoticeable. Then on the way to the cafe it ran like a top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted February 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Well, I told my G/F to call a towing company and have it towed home. I'm getting sick AGAIN, and rather than go through that I would not mind paying $30. Being the great woman she is, she wanted to go try and start it first. It started for her, so she drove it home and then went back and got her car. When I test drove it I got the following results: 1) As soon as it goes under boost (stock gauge hits 0+), it dies (kind of, the tach bottoms out, and everything shuts down.) 2) If you let off the gas it goes back to previous state, running fine. 3) After 4-5 min. drive time it shuts down again, doing EXACTLY what Black Sunshine did w/ bad injectors. It would start, tach would go from 0-about 1800 then it would shut down. It will do that about 6 times then won't start at all. I'm still thinking injectors. When it starts then shuts down, I put my timing light on it. I have good solid spark that varies w/ RPM, so I don't think it's the ICM, or a coil. I'm still leaning toward bad injectors causing a driver overload. As soon as I can get Sunshine out of the garage, I will put this one in, remove upper plenum, do a T/B bypass while I'm in there, and check the injectors. If they are suspect, I will put my Accels in and do the AL rail mounts. I'm pretty sure the ECM will be able to make up for the extra 2#'s of injector size. Jeff correct me if I'm wrong, but all I need todo is change the chip for 24#'s right? I've never looked in one of your chips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Well, I told my G/F to call a towing company and have it towed home. I'm getting sick AGAIN, and rather than go through that I would not mind paying $30. Being the great woman she is, she wanted to go try and start it first. It started for her, so she drove it home and then went back and got her car. When I test drove it I got the following results:1) As soon as it goes under boost (stock gauge hits 0+), it dies (kind of, the tach bottoms out, and everything shuts down.) 2) If you let off the gas it goes back to previous state, running fine. 3) After 4-5 min. drive time it shuts down again, doing EXACTLY what Black Sunshine did w/ bad injectors. It would start, tach would go from 0-about 1800 then it would shut down. It will do that about 6 times then won't start at all. I'm still thinking injectors. When it starts then shuts down, I put my timing light on it. I have good solid spark that varies w/ RPM, so I don't think it's the ICM, or a coil. I'm still leaning toward bad injectors causing a driver overload. As soon as I can get Sunshine out of the garage, I will put this one in, remove upper plenum, do a T/B bypass while I'm in there, and check the injectors. If they are suspect, I will put my Accels in and do the AL rail mounts. I'm pretty sure the ECM will be able to make up for the extra 2#'s of injector size. Jeff correct me if I'm wrong, but all I need todo is change the chip for 24#'s right? I've never looked in one of your chips. Sounds like you are right on. I keep telling people (more so in the emails I get) to just replace all the injectors and be done with it! There is a way that Shawn got me going on to check the injectors without pulling off the plenum, but when I get a TGP or TSTE, I just do new anyways, but since I have my wire loom hanging on my truck, took a look and I can see where to check the ohms of one side then the other of the injectors. Down next to the ECM, find up near the Convenience Center one small 2-wire connector and two 10-way connectors, carefully separate (don’t break the tab) the 10-way Black Connector. On the Black Connector with Male Ends, ohm from upper right to lower left, record reading, now take ohm reading lower right to upper left (reversed/other injector feed), record reading, that is Black/Pink to Light Blue and Pink/Black to Green wires. Since there are 3 injectors to a side, and you now have an ohm reading on both sides, do some math to find out how bad the injectors windings are. From Shawn and confirming from the book, and using 12.2 ohms as an average good injector, 12.2 ohms divided by 3 injectors equals 4.06 ohm/4 ohms. If the reading is less than 4 ohms then, there is one or some injectors that are dropping in ohms/going bad as all Multecs made prior to 1993 will do (NOT TGP specific problem!). I have been wanting to take the time to check into this trick Shawn mentioned but have not had the time/too many other things to get done/going, but now its done (not too bad with wiring harness laying out), and though this troubleshooting info will go away with this post over the next few weeks, I will keep it in my files for later retrieval. Now I KNOW, that you KNOW it’s a good chance your injectors are messing, and when under boost the ECM tries to work those bad low ohm injectors over-driving the injector drivers, but maybe too this “totally stock†TGP is sucking closed the rubber intake hose to the turbo, just thought I would mention it for now/maybe help later 8) . As for 24 lb injectors, of those I know who have done these over the years, NONE have run a scan tool that I know of or let alone report back on how much fuel trim went on with these (INT and BLM) so I cannot say for sure, all I heard from a few was it worked . I believe it can work better than would be expected since most TGPs/TSTEs have around 100k or more on the clock, and the original fuel pump, so maybe these are helping a week pump at boosted levels (I know a weak pump/any pump will drop off in pressure when the quantity increases, but still has some potential since they are only 2 lbs more). Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted February 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 As far as the intake tube goes, that was my first hope. Just to make sure, (and so I could hear my turbo make funny sounds) I put my open filament filter on there. So, that eliminates that as the problem. I knew you could check each bank of injectors, but why? On Black Sunshine I can have the injectors swapped in about 25 minutes. I don't even unhook the T/B cables. I just tuck everything behind the lower intake. (Thanks to the T/B bypass that is!!!) Plus, if you find something wrong, you have to tear it apart anyway. As far as the scan tool goes, do you want me to change the chip to 24#'s or do you want me to leave it stock and take a reading. I don't have a problem if you are interested in the results. Just lemme know if you want the chip: stock, changed, or both. As soon as I gring off the back of the lug studs and press them out (stripped lug nuts) I can get to work on the "other" black TGP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 As far as the intake tube goes, that was my first hope. Just to make sure, (and so I could hear my turbo make funny sounds) I put my open filament filter on there. So, that eliminates that as the problem. I knew you could check each bank of injectors, but why? On Black Sunshine I can have the injectors swapped in about 25 minutes. I don't even unhook the T/B cables. I just tuck everything behind the lower intake. (Thanks to the T/B bypass that is!!!) Plus, if you find something wrong, you have to tear it apart anyway. As far as the scan tool goes, do you want me to change the chip to 24#'s or do you want me to leave it stock and take a reading. I don't have a problem if you are interested in the results. Just lemme know if you want the chip: stock, changed, or both. As soon as I gring off the back of the lug studs and press them out (stripped lug nuts) I can get to work on the "other" black TGP. Yea I thought you would of checked/hope it was only the air filter hose too , I was hoping something simple but not to the level of problems you are having. As for ohming out the connector, silly boy, don't you listen , when I post I have this crazy suspicion others might be watching, learning and maybe able to benefit from the words/anyone’s words now of in the future when they have some issues like yours and are looking for some help, don't ya know . As for the 24 lb’ers, it would be great info, once again for others here as well, but in the future I could quote at least one person/you as testing the amount of fuel trim a stock chip needed to do for slightly bigger injectors, and as you know, since Multecs are common to fail, cost a bit/all need replaced at one time or another/soon, these Accels could be a great alternative! As for changing for the size, thanks but I already had that fun a few years ago when I started work on running 29 lb units, simple BPC helped but there was more to undo with the less than ideal stock chip tuning strategy, which I found (30+ ms injector pulse width, uh, yea!) the stock injectors were actually the way they limited over-fueling to a degree, lazy but they/McLaren were only given 2 weeks to do this TGP chip. Good luck! Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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