TurboZ24 Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Well, it's been a while since I posted to the TGP forums, probably since it changed format. I reciently ran a 12.873 @ 107.93 on 11-12 psi at Texas Motorplex. Link http://turboz24.locodyne.net/Files/12_873_run.avi I was still unhappy with that run, considering the amount of time I've spend on the engine, but soon discovered that I have two "minor" problems. My aftermarket ECM has never assumed ignition control, so the engine has been running off the ignition module only all this time and my turbine housing on the turbo is still too small. I have since fixed the ignition (got to work on the program some, though) and the new turbine housing will be finished shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeorge Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 congrats........have you had your car dyno'd yet?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iTurbo Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 11-12 psi?! Very impressive! 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Hey I was looking at at your video and do you have a 5-speed in your car it looks like your shifting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iTurbo Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 What is your 60' time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboZ24 Posted November 8, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 I will be dynoing the car to fine tune the ignition sometime soon. The 60' time for that run was a 1.840. It was really too cold that night for good runs, though. Somewhere bewteen 49-52 degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Nice run! Your car sounds like mine when the BOV let's go!! I love that sound...turns heads real quick!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalor Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 TurboZ24 I've always been impressed with the work that you put into your car(from what I've seen on your webpage). A 12.873 @ 107.93 on 11-12 psi is very very impressive even if it's still not what you had hoped for. I've heard that you snapped some halfshafts once ...that must have been interesting. I wish I had enough power to snap halfshaft I've got a ?? for you...are you running the Haltech E6GM ECU??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboZ24 Posted November 8, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 I have a Haltech E6A. The current one is the E6K and soon to be release full SFI, 32 Bit processor, with a whole bunch of other stuff, the E11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 Well, it's been a while since I posted to the TGP forums, probably since it changed format. I reciently ran a 12.873 @ 107.93 on 11-12 psi at Texas Motorplex. Hey Curtis, speak of the devil (on another post here just last night). Nice numbers, one of the BEST ones I have seen so far for the 60 degree v6 in a FWD, but your earned it, and more rewards to come since I know its in that engine waiting to be tapped, but only a fool would take such an excellent engine and go for the full pull right off the bat and not work up to it step by step, and 13s was a good start, 12s now, low 12 later then some 11s for the amount of power your engine can make. I noticed you launch hard/excellant 60ft, FWD fun attempting that but looks like you got a system figured out, need some drag blocks though? I noticed you ran some stainless wire on those heads, who ran the grooves for you? Top/down intercooler setup, not as "pretty" as the ricer"s side to side but more efficient/less pressure drop and THAT is what matters, same idea I am looking to crunch into my TGP, it has enough room for 28" wide x 16" tall x 5" deep, this winter to finish that up. When you fine tune things now with timing that is paying attention, better watch taking off fast enough to upset the time zone (ahhh, meaning the earth moved under my feet, and is out of sync, never mind). Turbine wheel not exhaling enough, watch those exhaust seals to make sure the backpressure does not pop them off the valve guides, though am not able to see what kind you are using, Teflon or Mushroom Capped Viton? Well, continued best of luck now, let us know how it goes, we need more American FWDs running the drags with such good/soon excellent numbers! Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboZ24 Posted November 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 I'm seriously thinking of getting bags for the rear springs, to try to stop some of the transfer. A local machine shop did the o-rings in the heads for me. IT's more expensive than in the block, but I didn't have to tear the block down to do it either. I prefer top down intercoolers, harder to install, but definately more efficient. I could probably squeeze a little larger one, but this one keeps the air plenty cool. I have teflon valve guide seals, simply because nothing else will really fit with the dual coil 1.455" springs. All the guides are also oil impregnated bronze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 Are the springs leaf as in mono leaf like the W-body, and any similarities to mounting dimensions? What skins are you running as you pulled out of the hole with nary a squeak but a sound of good rubber hooking up, and really pulling out strong. Thanks for the info on the heads, will email you for stuff like price and the shop you used, sure there are others but like to compare/discuss/etc, might need to have heads that way too though I have 2 blocks here that are O-Ringed but a few of my buddies are trying to put dibs on these. If I recall correctly that you are running a 60-1, these are so efficient you almost don't need an intercooler Teflons will stay put better than Viton styles, good to hear and to have. You must be running some rpms to warrant such spring size/strength. Lot of nice pieces of engine hardware there, yummy!! If your heads are ever off again, and someone tells you to knurl the valve guides don't do it, some guys I know who are professional engine builders found this old trick is not worth it any more, specially on a turbo application, the higher points of the knurling reduce the available contact point with the valve stem and accelerated wear occurs to the point where the valve rocks in the worn valve guide. Your use of both Bronze an Oil Impregnation is the proper way to stay for added lubricity. Knurling was old school to get and hold oil in the location between the valve stem and valve guide, not no more less you like to rebuild often, which pro racers have to do anyways, only if they have to considering something is worth the sacrifice, no more and that makes them happy, pulling valve guides is a little hard on the heads. A good tuning trick when you get back to that is to setup your boost control to nil, base line the steady state cruise and mild loaded areas, everything up to atmospheric. Once you got that, set the boost controller to hold 2 psi then run the revs/rpms at 2 psi checking the usual air/fuel, knock and dyno needle 8) Finish 2 psi then set for 4 psi constant, this approach puts tuning in a much easier 2D staged progression then attempting nearly all areas of load/boost and rpms with a 3D approach, and more importantly you move up the boost scale slowly and avoid Mr destructo knocking at the door :cuss: . Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboZ24 Posted November 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 The Cavalier uses coil springs, but they arn't like the front springs, they decrease in diameter as they go up, like a coiled snake I guess. Sure, we can swap prices, info on machine work. My best deal is usually head work, the guy who does my porting is so awesome and inexpensive as well as the machine shop I use for most of the machine work. The need for the big springs derives from the 200+ cfm head flow rating, the 254/246 @ .05" .62"/.60" 114 lobe seperation roller mechanical cam (almost no lobe ramp, pretty much a straight up and down cam profile), etc. Peak HP should be around 6800-7000 rpm and redline is 8000. The springs are actually 195 lbs closed, 400-450 lbs open (can't remember exactly, but got the spec somewhere around here). The Haltech Technician helps me program the car. He has a really expensive A/F gage setup and he is fast at programming the ECM. I would limit the boost more, but minimum is 8 psi with my current wastegate spring. It's kind of hard, though when we are cruising at highway speeds and he says hit the gas and the brakes and hold the rpm and get boost. Lucky for me I have STS front brakes and 6000 rear Discs, otherwise I couldn't hold the motor. I can't hold it as is for more than a few seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian89gp Posted November 10, 2002 Report Share Posted November 10, 2002 what was this ignition problem and how'd you fix it? Impressive #'s either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboZ24 Posted November 10, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2002 Had to add a pickup resistor to the ignition out circuit in my Haltech ECM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted November 11, 2002 Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 The Cavalier uses coil springs, but they arn't like the front springs, they decrease in diameter as they go up, like a coiled snake I guess. I was suspect you would be different, I have drag blocks under testing for the W-Body rear mono-leaf spring, that won't go there though, sorry, but bagging your's will keep you butt up in the air where it belongs, maybe on the fronts flip some drag shocks upside down to get a 10/90 split. Sure, we can swap prices, info on machine work. My best deal is usually head work, the guy who does my porting is so awesome and inexpensive as well as the machine shop I use for most of the machine work. As for swapping info, when you get the time, I know our posts here are going to send waves to many guys fishing in the same waters resulting in many emails soon, and probably for a long time to come, we may both regret this publicly shared excitement, I know that in the past when I got going too much on message boards about such topics, I was soon bombed with emails from many guy's dreams, theoretical ideas, even partial to nearly completed plans regarding the same, granted the awesome avenue the Internet affords to share with others, and that I have benefited from it and remain excited with, impressed and still humbled, one can still get too much of a good thing, even race engines. The need for the big springs derives from the 200+ cfm head flow rating, the 254/246 @ .05" .62"/.60" 114 lobe seperation roller mechanical cam (almost no lobe ramp, pretty much a straight up and down cam profile), etc. Peak HP should be around 6800-7000 rpm and redline is 8000. The springs are actually 195 lbs closed, 400-450 lbs open (can't remember exactly, but got the spec somewhere around here). My mention in our last emails regarding the hefty valve springs was; I was wondering what rpms that that meant you were going with, speaks for itself but was curios just how high of rrrs, and have heard of upwards of 8,500 doable on the 3.1 in some applications. Those high rpms and a cam with such a steep drop off on the lobes, needs some tension to send those valves down fast enough. The rpms I try to maintain for the engines I work on is to keep it for the masses since not many will go the highroad like your bruiser motor, and since the stock runners on the TGP 3.1L are so long, great for torque, are not so great for high rpm like you run, but with a turbo these long runners can be a blessing for a reasonable power build around 350 to 400 and power band from 2,000 to 5,300 or so, a good combo for these engines is the long runners making low rpm torque with the turbo making the higher rpm hp. These longer runners also help those who get custom pistons and drop the compression ratio from getting doggy engines till the turbo wakes up. You obviously determined this as well since you swapped manifolds types, with yours looking like a perfect match for relatively long runner but short enough to runs some rpms and mass air quantities. 195lb is a good number, too many guys I have email me want those springs/like ratings on an engine that is not going to rev much more than stock and sure are not running a roller setup/steep cam lob profiles to warrant them. Actually my tests back a few years ago were to see just how light I could make the springs on these heads reducing the power lost when the engine has to smash 12 springs thousands of times a minute, AND the reduced strain on other internal components. Then I tested some rpms to find their holding abilities, that were still holding fine at nearly 6,000 (where I choose to let off for the tranny), even though my heads were still flowing well, like V8s at that speed (and sounding like it as well, the owner was also pretty ecstatic at that point), and there still did not feel a power/hp drop, decided that was enough since manual or auto, 6,000 speed-shifts would be a bit much to handle unless the owner just wanted to keep spending on more mod's and upgrades. Of course NONE of these concerns are for you and your engine as you know, I only mention this info/results for those who are here with their 3.1L. I am flowing cfms on the exhaust side with a Gen II aluminum nearly the same as the Gen III with their "out-of-the-box" 31% exhaust flow increase over Gen II statement, and the Gen III compared to was also ported well by the designer in Detroit, so I was please but know the 3.1L crowd was going to be even happier. The Haltech Technician helps me program the car. He has a really expensive A/F gage setup and he is fast at programming the ECM. I would limit the boost more, but minimum is 8 psi with my current wastegate spring. It's kind of hard, though when we are cruising at highway speeds and he says hit the gas and the brakes and hold the rpm and get boost. Lucky for me I have STS front brakes and 6000 rear Discs, otherwise I couldn't hold the motor. I can't hold it as is for more than a few seconds. Nice, that's the way, I always use second/shot-gun rider to help keep tabs when tuning, wide-band too. Not sure but you should be able to run from 2 to 6 psi though it would not be a WOT/PE setting to work with, still an area to be sure about. Did you try using that cruise control idea to setup your base cruise fuel and timing maps, works slick for those who can tune from inside their cars. Well, nuf said, sure being at the helm is true Gr8-Ride. Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted November 11, 2002 Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 TurboZ24... What clutch system do you have in your cavalier? I am running a Dual Friction CenterForce that was made for a 2.8L, but I was assured by the CenterForce folks that it would be plenty of a clutch for my TGP motor. Currently I am having a problem with slippage. I am assuming you are running a Getrag-282 5-Speed with a hydralic clutch? Thanks for your time...Kenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboZ24 Posted November 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 Oh..... CenterForce. I have a simple warning about CenterForce Dual friction clutches, don't use them..... I had exactly the same problem you had. I had a CenterForce clutch, and before I ordered it I told then the application, gobbs of HP and upto 500+ ft lbs, their response was "Sure, it will hold fine." After 500+ miles of break-in, it still didn't hold and would slip on the highway in 4th and 5th gears. Their response was that it didn't have enough break-in yet. Well, eventually I pulled it, sent it back, bitched like mad, and got a refund. I currently have a Clutch Masters stage 4 clutch, which is a little more difficult to street drive, but holds like mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboZ24 Posted November 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 Yeah, the stock runners are like 14" long. That's a long runner and if anyone ever wondered why the 3.1 has a good deal of low rpm torque, there you go. The runners on my current manifold are around 8" long and twice the area. The 3.1 manifold's weakest point seems to be where they turn up into the upper manifold, the diameter looks like it's down to just a little over the size of a quarter. Turbocharger's are wonderful at overcoming an engine ability to breath well, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godofthunder Posted November 11, 2002 Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 Nice run! Your car sounds like mine when the BOV let's go!! I love that sound...turns heads real quick!!! I may sound really dumb, but whats a BOV? That and your car sounds amazing. I am about to put an exhaust on mine (96 Cutlass - 3100), and want a deep sport rumble. I am looking at Summit Turbo mufflers, or some Dynomaxxs of my dads 86 Regal Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted November 11, 2002 Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 BOV = Blow Off Valve. It evacuates the boost pressure from the intake line when you close the throttle plate. If you do not do this, it will send a pressure shock wave back and forth from the turbo compressor wheel and the throttle plate. Makes for a really cool sound, but this shock wave can/will slow the Turbo from 100,000+ RPM to 10,000 or less in a big hurry. This will shorten the life of the turbo seals and bearings real fast. The BOV is placed somewhere in the intake line after the turbo and before the throttle plate...when it opens it relieves the boost pressure from the line. Most BOVs have a vacuum hose connection to the intake plenum (after the throttle plate) so that it senses vacuum as soon as the throttle plate is closed... 8) Go to Google.com and search for BOV or Blow Off Valve. http://www.jumptronix.com/2g_go_faster/Stages/details/BlowOffValve.htm also here... http://www.alltrac.net/tuning/bovfaq.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godofthunder Posted November 11, 2002 Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 I figured it had something to do with just the turbos. I woundt have it caus I have the normal 3100 Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timg Posted November 11, 2002 Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 damn, that's one sweet car! Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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