Performance Brakes on a 1st Gen

[Amanita]

I've got another possible track date coming up, and I'm starting to push the limits of the EBC Redstuff pads I've been running for the past 6 track days plus 35,000+ miles on the street. I'm looking for something more aggressive since this isn't my daily driver anymore. EBC offers a direct upgrade in braking performance with their yellowstuff pads, but I've heard people say they're not the best brand.
Any recommendations for pads?
Additionally, has anyone used Bosh 5.1 or Motul RBF 600/660 brake fluid?

[SuperBuick]

11 hours ago, Amanita said:

I've got another possible track date coming up, and I'm starting to push the limits of the EBC Redstuff pads I've been running for the past 6 track days plus 35,000+ miles on the street. I'm looking for something more aggressive since this isn't my daily driver anymore. EBC offers a direct upgrade in braking performance with their yellowstuff pads, but I've heard people say they're not the best brand.
Any recommendations for pads?
Additionally, has anyone used Bosh 5.1 or Motul RBF 600/660 brake fluid?

Cooling ducts pointed towards the back center of the rotor (essentially at the hub) will be the most helpful. Hard to do on a front wheel drive car that isnt an all out race car (to where you can put an inlet hole or naca duct wherever you please  ) Also remove the dust shields.

 

Ive used motul race fluid extensively. No issues with it. 
 

As far as pads for our caliper I do not know who makes performance pads that fit - but pagid, hawk (blue), carbotech all are good race pads.  Im sure for track days EBC are fine - I do not know of and have not seen anyone using ebc in actual racing (but im also not inspecting cars or asking people about brake pads at the race track lol ) 

 

Use plain cast iron rotors and not drilled or slotted or anything silly like that. 

Cooling. Cooling. Cooling. 

[Amanita]

1 hour ago, SuperBuick said:

Ive used motul race fluid extensively. No issues with it. 
 

As far as pads for our caliper I do not know who makes performance pads that fit - but pagid, hawk (blue), carbotech all are good race pads.  Im sure for track days EBC are fine - I do not know of and have not seen anyone using ebc in actual racing (but im also not inspecting cars or asking people about brake pads at the race track lol )

Good to know that Motul fluids work fine, thanks!
As for pads, YellowStuff seem to be the most performance oriented ones readily available, I've had one guy tell me they did perfectly fine on a 24 hours of lemons car and another tell me they got burned out after 2 track days. I might go with them anyway, I'm only 15 minutes out from the track I'm at so if I have to tow or do a hasty repair, oh well lesson learned.

[Megavolt-380]

My version of the front brakes looks like this
Disc  300mm         Opel Astra-J            GM 13502051
Caliper  2-piston  45mm      Opel Antara / Chevrolet Equinox    GM 96625936 - left         GM 96625937 - right

my version is on the left          1,5gen - on the right

Use stock 16inch Wheel

 

The mileage on this version is about 30,000 miles
System without abs, stock master cylinder

Edited October 15 by Megavolt-380

[White93z34]

Thats really cool, love to see the creativity.

Finally a brake upgrade that uses parts for cars not sold on my continent  

[SuperBuick]

@Amanita are you going to the lemons race in new hampshire this weekend?

[Amanita]

1 hour ago, SuperBuick said:

@Amanita are you going to the lemons race in new hampshire this weekend?

I am not, the team I was invited to join is brand new and the last I heard from the guy organizing it he's still looking for a car.

[SuperBuick]

2 hours ago, Amanita said:

I am not, the team I was invited to join is brand new and the last I heard from the guy organizing it he's still looking for a car.

Ah ok. Let me know when you’ll be at one. Lately Ive been at most of the northeast lemons races driving for some VW guys.  Had been running Hondas and BMWs in AER, but its fun to get back to lemons sometimes - especially when I dont have to work on the car

[Vegeta]

Has anyone adapted a Wilwood caliper setup?  I had 96 Grand Prix brakes on a 92 before, and figured that would be the best I can do without cut/weld.  

[Amanita]

6 minutes ago, Vegeta said:

Has anyone adapted a Wilwood caliper setup?  I had 96 Grand Prix brakes on a 92 before, and figured that would be the best I can do without cut/weld.  

Are the '96 brakes bigger? I didn't know there was a difference.

[Vegeta]

I forget the sizing but yes, bigger front for sure, and the back is either bigger, or just a better design.  The parking brake cable was modified/welded until it broke, so it will be an issue.  Have to swap to the 96 strut/hub, and I think the rears bolt on?  I didn't do it, previous owner was road racing the car and had it setup with those brakes.  

[SuperBuick]

If going through that work, unless wilwood is the only option, id try a brembo setup before wilwood. Wilwoods are , uh, not that great, and have really small pads.  Of course that may be why they are better for adapting to the w bodies. 
 

Im literally typing this while standing next to a race car im about to get into that has wilwood brakes, getting pads installed for me to bed in for the team

 

[Schurkey]

2nd Gen front rotors are somewhat larger diameter.  As said, the whole front strut assembly is required as the caliper mounts a bit farther from the hub center.  The rear calipers have a very poor reputation, although I've had ZERO problems with them on my two Luminas.

 

As far as braking power is concerned, the big issue on my two ('92 and '93) Lumina Euro 3.4s were the VACUUM POWER BOOSTERs.  Both cars had high pedal effort, poor braking performance.  That seems to be a common complaint on the first-gen cars.  It wasn't the front calipers, rotors, pads, neither was it a problem with the much-maligned rear calipers, or the rear rotors/pads.  The WHOLE problem was the power booster.  The boosters on both cars "partially" failed leading to reduced assist (almost none, yet not totally dead.)  The boosters had NONE of the usual symptoms--didn't leak vacuum, held vacuum until the check-valve was removed, didn't hiss or make ugly noises.  There just wasn't much assist.

I installed "rebuilt" vacuum boosters sourced from CarQuest/Advance Auto, and both vehicles were immediately fixed.  If I remember correctly, the brake light switch on the '92 gave me more trouble than the (updated design) brake light switch on the '93.

It may be that the better solution is to install 2nd Gen boosters on the 1st Gen cars with vacuum boosters.  I guess the 2nd Gen vacuum boosters are larger-diameter.

 

Edited October 19 by Schurkey

[Amanita]

7 hours ago, Schurkey said:

2nd Gen front rotors are somewhat larger diameter.  As said, the whole front strut assembly is required as the caliper mounts a bit farther from the hub center.  The rear calipers have a very poor reputation, although I've had ZERO problems with them on my two Luminas.

 

As far as braking power is concerned, the big issue on my two ('92 and '93) Lumina Euro 3.4s were the VACUUM POWER BOOSTERs.  Both cars had high pedal effort, poor braking performance.  That seems to be a common complaint on the first-gen cars.  It wasn't the front calipers, rotors, pads, neither was it a problem with the much-maligned rear calipers, or the rear rotors/pads.  The WHOLE problem was the power booster.  The boosters on both cars "partially" failed leading to reduced assist (almost none, yet not totally dead.)  The boosters had NONE of the usual symptoms--didn't leak vacuum, held vacuum until the check-valve was removed, didn't hiss or make ugly noises.  There just wasn't much assist.

I installed "rebuilt" vacuum boosters sourced from CarQuest/Advance Auto, and both vehicles were immediately fixed.  If I remember correctly, the brake light switch on the '92 gave me more trouble than the (updated design) brake light switch on the '93.

It may be that the better solution is to install 2nd Gen boosters on the 1st Gen cars with vacuum boosters.  I guess the 2nd Gen vacuum boosters are larger-diameter.

 

Did the '96 cars have an updated booster? Granted, the '96 has much more aggressive pads and is a couple hundred pounds lighter, but I think the braking performance between my '96 and '98 is pretty similar all things considered.

I know brake conversions exist, but for now I'd like to keep the car mostly stock.

[Vegeta]

I don't know much about brake brands, just that there are aftermarket options;)  RSM used to sell a kit to swap in a corvette front rear setup.  13" front 12" rear I believe.  That made a big difference, and it was cutting the 2 bosses off the front and welding them to a new spot (not a lot of work, just spacing, not offsets), and the rears used a bracket adapter.

[Schurkey]

2 hours ago, Amanita said:

Did the '96 cars have an updated booster?

Far as I know, everything '95 model-year and newer had the better booster.

Some of the first-gen cars had the goofy ABS system that didn't use a vacuum booster--the ABS system also did brake assist somehow.  I believe that was a troublesome system; but I don't really know anything about it.

Edited October 19 by Schurkey

[55trucker]

5 hours ago, Amanita said:

Did the '96 cars have an updated booster? Granted, the '96 has much more aggressive pads and is a couple hundred pounds lighter, but I think the braking performance between my '96 and '98 is pretty similar all things considered.

I know brake conversions exist, but for now I'd like to keep the car mostly stock.

The revised booster was introduced with the '94 year.

It is physically larger than its predecessor, if one wants to *update* ones older car to this booster it is NOT a simple drop in.

But it is an definite improvement to the system, being a larger double diaphragm design it does supply more boost & reduces the pedal effort dramatically.

 

   

[55trucker]

On 10/14/2024 at 11:02 PM, Amanita said:

I've got another possible track date coming up, and I'm starting to push the limits of the EBC Redstuff pads I've been running for the past 6 track days plus 35,000+ miles on the street. I'm looking for something more aggressive since this isn't my daily driver anymore. EBC offers a direct upgrade in braking performance with their yellowstuff pads, but I've heard people say they're not the best brand.
Any recommendations for pads?
Additionally, has anyone used Bosh 5.1 or Motul RBF 600/660 brake fluid?

Take a look at EBC's SR series pads, they are sintered, seeing as you're not using the car as a DD these may be what you're looking for.

[Schurkey]

On 10/19/2024 at 6:00 PM, 55trucker said:

The revised booster was introduced with the '94 year.

It is physically larger than its predecessor, if one wants to *update* ones older car to this booster it is NOT a simple drop in 

What is required to change to the '94-newer booster?  I thought it screwed into the mounting bracket just like the original.  Different pedal-to-booster rod?  Interference with the larger diameter?

Edited October 23 by Schurkey

[55trucker]

2 hours ago, Schurkey said:

What is required to change to the '94-newer booster?  I thought it screwed into the mounting bracket just like the original.  Different pedal-to-booster rod?  Interference with the larger diameter?

For any individual who owns a 91-93 LQ1 equipped car the process of installing the newer designed booster is not a simple process. The issue is not the booster itself, both old & newer booster use the same cam-lock design to fasten it into place, it is the additional alteration of the plumbing around the larger booster.

The inlet heater core piping has to be relocated to accommodate the larger diameter booster. The 94 model year saw GM redesign the a/c for the vehicle, 134a was introduced in 94, the back end of the a/c compressor was redesigned & saw a new manifold assembly fitted to it, the accumulator/drier was reconfigured by replacing the fittings with a newer different thread pitch so the older manifold assembly will not connect it at all, the same for the 94+ condenser, the fittings are not interchangeable with the older pieces.

The a/c fluid return piping from the evaporator core for the older system will interfere with the larger diameter booster, so one has to replace that older piping with the newer design which redirects the piping in behind the booster down & away from the bottom of the booster so the newer booster will mount & lock into place.

I discovered all of this at the time I did the upgrade to the newer larger booster, I had to remove the heater piping & cut it in multiple places to braze in extensions to move the inlet further to the left side of the new booster.

I purchased the later 94+ a/c fluid piping & accumulator/drier from Rockauto, (I already have the newer 134a compressor & manifold installed into the car) because I still have the older design condenser (a new one) in the car I had to cut off the fittings of both of the ends of the manifold hose assemblies (old & new) that go to the condenser & then tig on the older pitch fitting to the newer hose so that the fitting would screw into the older design condenser.

All this took me about 2 weeks to do as I had to wait for delivery of parts from Rockauto, but after it was completed the *new* brakes are well worth the effort I went to.  

 

         

Edited October 23 by 55trucker

[Amanita]

On 10/20/2024 at 9:11 AM, 55trucker said:

Take a look at EBC's SR series pads, they are sintered, seeing as you're not using the car as a DD these may be what you're looking for.

Unfortunately they don't make that compound for w-bodies, at least for my Grand Prix. Yellowstuff is the most aggressive pad they make for them.