No clearance to remove harmonic balancer on Regal

[Grandfathers GS]

Hi, brand new here!  Hoping to learn, share, and make friends.

The car:  2000 Buick Regal GS (supercharged), 218,000 miles.  Second owner, bought in 2018 at about 185,000 miles.

Me:  Turning wrenches for about 62 years.  Cars, marine, motorcycles.  Rebuild engines, manual transmissions, engine swaps, analyze and repair emissions equipment, just about everything over the years that doesn't require super specialized equipment.  A decent garage and equipment setup.

I need to replace my timing chain.  In the official factory manual I own and every YT video I've come across shows the harmonic balancer very accessible after removing a splash shield under the right front wheel well.  Well...bad joke there..., there is no such piece of plastic.  In fact, there isn't one on my 1999 Regal LS, either. 

That means, also, only two of the puller holes are visible at a time.  Not to worry, grandfather has already figured out how to get access via a bit of electric grinder cutting. But wait, it gets worse.  GM uses some really small OD screw holes in the balancer for the puller.  In two different sizes?  WTH??  In order to get the right screws to use with my puller, I ordered a new balancer from Amazon* so that I can take it into Rooster's Ace Hardware to buy the right screws.  But wait, it gets worse....The balancer is 3.5" front to back.  That's because of the extra supercharger drive pulley.  There's only about 2" of clearance until you hit the frame. 

What to do?

Unless someone knows official GM secret method #42, I'm thinking I'll have to lower the right side subframe.  I'll have to get the crank almost 2.5" lower than as it sits.  Does this sound doable?  I know I'll have to disconnect the radiator hoses and look for other clearance issues and loosen the left side bolts. 

What do you think? 

*I mentioned I bought the balancer...which I'll return...from Amazon.  That company has become my first choice auto parts store.  Rock Auto has super great prices but when you add shipping and long delivery times, I've not found them the right choice in a long time.  Examples:  A new MAF sensor, over $100 at Advance Auto, $22 on Amazon.  The whole belt tensioner assembly, Dorman brand, $170 locally, $62 on Amazon.  The accessory serpentine belt is $18 on Amazon, and exactly the same $28.99 price at O'Reilly, Advance, and Autozone. Not one penny difference.  With Prime, my part is here in a day or two.  Sometimes the same day.

 

[55trucker]

Fortunately for you there have been others in the past here who have faced this same issue...lol...all is not lost...do not fret

Edited September 6 by 55trucker

[Grandfathers GS]

Thanks, but sadly that's for a car that has the splash shield which gives full access after it's removal.  Thanks anyway,. 

 

[55trucker]

That posting was basically intended for the 1st gen W cars (Buick) with the L27 engine, seeing as yours are 2nd gen cars I wasn't aware that one cannot get the dampener off with the proper remover (in the engine bay).

most of what you saw in that post can carry over to the gen 2 cars procedure..

Did you get the dampener retaining bolt removed?

[Grandfathers GS]

Maybe you are onto something about Gen I and Gen II.  Not the engines, but changes in the frame and splash shield issue.  My factory manual is for 1998 W body, and since my LS is 1999 and my GS is 2000, maybe they changed things when they changed the engine generation.  Whoduhfuckknows?

I do owe you an apology.  I reread those instruction slower this time, and it does talk about lowering the right side of the subframe to bring the crank down. So, I'm on the right track, I guess.  Weirdly, I've seen videos that got the balancer off without any lowering of the subframe.  Can't recall if they were W bodies or not.

I got the crank bolt out using the Mitsubishi Method.  It's a name I gave to this procedure after first using it on a Mitsu.  Get your socket and breaker bar on the bolt head, position the breaker bar against something firm, and hit the starter.  Works every time.  Since I didn't have anyone to hold the socket/bar assembly pushed onto the bolt head, I glued it on with Shoe Goo.  Worked perfectly and the Goo is too weak to get stuck on. 

[55trucker]

The less *dramatic* method to prevent the crank from turning is to remove the trans torque converter cover, use a set of vice grips wedged up against the converter ring gear teeth & lock the ring gear from rotating counter-clockwise.

 

You DO have the correct balancer puller?

it's a Kent-Moore J-38197, relatively flat puller, the centre bolt is relatively short as well, the majority of it disappears up inside the crank snout. a jaw puller is not used here at all.

Edited September 6 by 55trucker

[ron350]

 Here is the thread about my 96 Regal with a L36.

  https://www.w-body.com/topic/54828-removing-harmonic-balancer/#comment-1214194
  
  First i removed the balancer bolt then pulled the balancer loose from the crank but it was still traped by the fender.
  Removed the puller from the balancer.
  I removed the upper motor mounts and removed the bolts/nuts from the lower mounts.
  Then I jacked up on the drivers side of the motor to tilt it up enough to get the balancer out. 
  Had to jack and pry on the motor and transmission to get enough clearance to get that balancer out.

[White93z34]

That was legitimately on the same car as yours +/- a couple model years.

Remove the bolt

either buy the kit with the bolts or buy this: 

https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/harmonic-balancer-puller/p/oemtools-harmonic-balancer-puller-retrofit-kit-for-oem-27019-and-25053/409642_0_0

https://www.lislecorp.com/specialty-tools/harmonic-balancer-puller-for-gm

install the puller, remove the HB and you'll have plenty of room to spare. 

There is no reason whatsoever that you should have to cut your cars unibody structure in order to do this job.

also:

Quote

new MAF sensor, over $100 at Advance Auto, $22 on Amazon.

There's a reason its so cheap.

[Grandfathers GS]

On 9/6/2024 at 5:10 PM, White93z34 said:

That was legitimately on the same car as yours +/- a couple model years.

Remove the bolt

either buy the kit with the bolts or buy this: 

https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/harmonic-balancer-puller/p/oemtools-harmonic-balancer-puller-retrofit-kit-for-oem-27019-and-25053/409642_0_0

https://www.lislecorp.com/specialty-tools/harmonic-balancer-puller-for-gm

install the puller, remove the HB and you'll have plenty of room to spare. 

There is no reason whatsoever that you should have to cut your cars unibody structure in order to do this job.

also:

There's a reason its so cheap.

Nope, With the much wider balancer on the GS, at least in the Regal, it was absolutely necessary to cut off several inches of the pinch weld AND drop the right side of the subframe several inches to get the clearances necessary.  Not just for the balancer, but for the arms of the puller.  Even with all that, the puller had to be positioned "just so" in order work.

Auto parts pricing has little or nothing to do with quality.  I'm talking about sometimes the EXACT SAME Dorman or ACDelco part, for intamce.  New Dorman balancer, $85 on Amazon, EXACT SAME part at the stores, $137.  An even bigger difference for the tensioner assembly.  Front cover Fel-pro gasket set on Amazon, $18, here the next day.  At the parts stores, double that. And do you think tat a generic part like the throttle position sensor is any different than the parts stores house brands like Duralast?  And why is the accessory serpentine belt $30 at the stores, but $19 on Amazon?  Greed and profits, I will answer for you.  (I do understand that running a store does cost money compared to a warehouse, so that does account for some difference, for sure.)

 

[White93z34]

You can disagree with me on that all you like but all I'm saying is for all the 3800 SC ballancers I've pulled in that chassis I NEVER have had to drop the subframe or take hunks out of the chassis. Nor have I ever heard of anyone doing this before.

And yes, you're correct if you are talking like for like parts. I buy online all the time, I'm well aware.

Electronic parts, ESPECIALLY Mass Air flows are notoriously shit these days unless you are able to hunt down the OEM manufacturer Hitatchi in most cases for 3800s. There is so much garbage on the automotive aftermarket its rather shocking. If you get a $20 MAF that actually works then buy yourself a lottery ticket. I wouldn't mess with that personally. I know i'm hardly alone in this view.

[Grandfathers GS]

4 hours ago, White93z34 said:

You can disagree with me on that all you like but all I'm saying is for all the 3800 SC ballancers I've pulled in that chassis I NEVER have had to drop the subframe or take hunks out of the chassis. Nor have I ever heard of anyone doing this before.

And yes, you're correct if you are talking like for like parts. I buy online all the time, I'm well aware.

Electronic parts, ESPECIALLY Mass Air flows are notoriously shit these days unless you are able to hunt down the OEM manufacturer Hitatchi in most cases for 3800s. There is so much garbage on the automotive aftermarket its rather shocking. If you get a $20 MAF that actually works then buy yourself a lottery ticket. I wouldn't mess with that personally. I know i'm hardly alone in this view.

Well, I don't know what the answer is, what they are.  My official 1998 W body GM manuals only offer up remove the splash shield and there ya go.  I can tell you that my 1999 LS has the same clearance issues.  Like my GS, no splash shield.  Just frame in the way like my GS.  No room for both a puller with the short Lisle "retrofit" screws and space to pull it off.  No supercharger, obviously.  If one didn't need a puller and it would slide off of the crank, there MIGHT be enough room. 

If there is one part that is beyond simple, it is a MAF sensor.  Two pieces of wire, one shielded from the air stream, the other open to it.  No moving parts.  If the wires meet the resistance standards for the sensor, nothing can be different from one sensor brand to another. 

I've long believed that many replacement parts come off of the same assembly line as the OEM.  Ya think Dorman contracts with some outfit to make and sell a few thousand balancers or tensioner assemblies a year?   Wouldn't make economic sense.  However, if the OEM manufacturer has the right to sell to others, easily stipulated in the contract.  Look at Delphi.  Oops, I mean ACDelco....  Those of us with grease under our fingernails know that Delphi makes most of the appropriate stuff for GM, probably sole source. 

Thanks for the thoughts and conversation.