04 Grand Prix won't start

[GTPsurvivor]

It has a new battery and getting good power , about 12.6 volts. It lights up but nothing turns now suddenly . You know when you try to ignite while gear is in Drive position ? Its like that , nothing happens . The starter doesn't even turn , so I pulled and replaced the starter and ignition relays with spares I had . No difference . Since it doesn't start , I cant bring it to store for OBD scan . Has anyone experienced this issue and may know what the problem is ? 

[Schurkey]

Check ALL the fuses and fusible links.

Verify ignition switch is getting power.

Verify neutral safety switch gets power from ignition switch when key is turned to "Crank".

Verify starter "S" terminal gets power from neutral safety switch when key is turned to "Crank".

 

Beyond that, get a Genuine GM service manual set for your vehicle, trace down the schematic for the starter power--particularly the "S" terminal on the solenoid.

[GTPsurvivor]

I don't know how to do any of that except I did inspect and replace every fuse and relay related to battery and ignition . Beyond that I do have the multi meter but don't know how to check the neutral switch or S terminal . I need guidance but logic dictates that the starter is either bad or not getting power . I just don't know how to test it . What is an S terminal ?  Sorry for my ignorance . Thanks 

[Schurkey]

11 hours ago, GTPsurvivor said:

I don't know how to do any of that except I did inspect and replace every fuse and relay related to battery and ignition .

Beyond that I do have the multi meter but don't know how to check the neutral switch or S terminal .

I need guidance but logic dictates that the starter is either bad or not getting power . I just don't know how to test it . What is an S terminal ?

You inspected every fuse.  What about the fusible links?

Use the multimeter set to a voltage scale that would include 15 volts, but not much more than that.  Not 2000 volts, not 200 volts.  On my meter, that'd be the 40 volt scale.  Other meters might have a 20-volt scale.  Verify you have battery voltage--or close--going into and out of the various components when the key is turned to "Crank".

Not the best photo of a starter solenoid end-cap, but you should get a clue from this.  In use on the starter, there'd be three or four lugs poking through this cap, not just two.  The S terminal is generally connected to a 12-gauge purple wire.  That wire is what comes from the neutral safety switch, it's what tells the starter motor to engage.  Many (most) vehicles built since '75 will not have an "R" terminal.  So they'd have two big terminals, and one small one--the "S" terminal.

Edited August 15 by Schurkey

[GTPsurvivor]

Where is that creature ? Never seen it in 20 years working on this car . Nor do I know what it is or does .  But location would help me start working on it. What is a fusible link ? Seems like I will spend all my pay this week on getting it towed because its in a commercial parking lot . I was hoping to drive off into the sunset but it won't ignite . 

[Schurkey]

16 hours ago, GTPsurvivor said:

Where is that creature ? Never seen it in 20 years working on this car . Nor do I know what it is or does .  But location would help me start working on it.

What is a fusible link ? Seems like I will spend all my pay this week on getting it towed because its in a commercial parking lot . I was hoping to drive off into the sunset but it won't ignite . 

The photo is of a starter solenoid cap.  It's bolted to the starter.  Some folks don't realize the solenoid is a separate component from the starter motor.

A fusible link is a smaller-gauge wire that is intended to melt to protect the rest of the wire harness.  Fusible link wire is fairly ordinary except for the insulation, which is "special" in that it isn't much of a fire hazard when the conductor inside overheats and melts.  Fusible links are perhaps six inches long or less, and four gauge sizes smaller than the wire they're protecting.  Example: A 12-gauge wire would be protected by a 16-gauge fusible link.  Fusible links handle short-term, mild overloads very gracefully--generally no damage at all.  But a huge overload, or a long-term overload causes them to melt and open the circuit.

[GTPsurvivor]

Last question. I have read and watched videos and cant find the starter despite looking at thousands of pictures and diagrams  . Is it even visible without jacking up  ?  I know how to do all tests now except the neutral safety switch . I did tests on all relays . But the next step is locating starter so I can attached a wire . And I am still unsure how I would know if its the starter or solenoid 

Thanks again ! 

[Schurkey]

10 hours ago, GTPsurvivor said:

cant find the starter despite looking at thousands of pictures and diagrams  . Is it even visible without jacking up...  ...I am still unsure how I would know if its the starter or solenoid

Starter is below the front exhaust manifold.  So, sure, you're probably going to see it better from underneath.

Solenoid is mounted to the top of the starter.  You're more likely to attach cables or test equipment to the solenoid than to the starter itself.

[GTPsurvivor]

Hi so I conducted a battery of tests but that was before I found the fuel pump fuse had what looked like a burn mark on it and so I replaced it . Hopefully that protected the pump. On the electrical tests : Voltage to starter terminal A was a consistent 12 volts . With voltage drop on that test . Voltage to terminal S was zero with or without attempted start . On supplying direct voltage to S terminal the starter fired up and rolled the crankshaft but would not start the car even with key on . I tried to hotwire both the crank and fuel relays and try starting but starter doesn't kick in . Its waiting for authorization from somewhere . The only time it kicks in is with direct voltage supplied . But doesn't actually start the car I fear a bad fuel pump or ignition switch or NSS or crank sensor . Because it doesn't actually start up when jumping the starter terminal should narrow it down to something but its unclear what the next steps are .

Edited August 25 by GTPsurvivor
It added crap I didn't type

[GTPsurvivor]

At this point I need to bypass the NSS temporarily to further isolate the problem because I already did the crank bypass and electric ignition bypass and still failed so it could still be fuel pump or some other ignition mechanism . Plus my car has been marked for towing as its on private property .  I have seen a couple NSS hacks but none specifically for 3800 III. 

[GTPsurvivor]

Newest development . I was able to get it to crank at will after a switch I engaged bypassing the crank relay  after recharging the battery but still nothing fires . It just keeps cranking incessantly . I forgot to check the fuel rail until an hour later but it did not squirt .
So to sum it up. All fuses and relays are good  as I checked them again . Starter is fine . Everything turns when I bypass the crank relay but it does not fire up. 
What is the most likely cause ?  Thanks 
 

[94 olds vert]

Fuel pump? Test fuel pressure at the rail. If it's zero that's not good. 

[GTPsurvivor]

Yeah I know . I just looked it up and not cheap . I will check out the filter and so forth . 40 bucks pump the junkyard if I can get there . A couple other things I want to check first . 

[GTPsurvivor]

Check this out . I found some jackass had the fuel relay backwards . I switched it and it produced plenty of fuel at the line . But still no fire. Then I jumped the ignition relay and it turned over once then shut off . Then wouldn't even let me engage my crank switch . What does that sound like? I've been chasing ghosts . It has to be that ****** anti theft system,  not every other system going bad . That's why I tried the turn key and wait 15 minutes and turn off times three , first thing in the morning. Didn't help at all . I need to disable that thing once and for all . The only question I have with my own theory here is the ATS lights don't come on . Maybe some other problem .

I am positive nobody will recommend this , but do you think it would even work to set it in crank mode and that would be enough to power it a hundred feet or so , or does that not work with auto trans ? I need to get it moved today ! 

Edited August 26 by GTPsurvivor

[GTPsurvivor]

No change yet . I saw a video about a similar issue same year and model car  and the guy took off the ignition bezel and found a damaged transponder ring . I took my bezel off and there was no such ring . Does everyone have that ?  Where would it have gone ? ? 

[Black92GS]

On 8/26/2024 at 11:59 AM, GTPsurvivor said:

Check this out . I found some jackass had the fuel relay backwards . I switched it and it produced plenty of fuel at the line . But still no fire. Then I jumped the ignition relay and it turned over once then shut off . Then wouldn't even let me engage my crank switch . What does that sound like? I've been chasing ghosts . It has to be that ****** anti theft system,  not every other system going bad . That's why I tried the turn key and wait 15 minutes and turn off times three , first thing in the morning. Didn't help at all . I need to disable that thing once and for all . The only question I have with my own theory here is the ATS lights don't come on . Maybe some other problem .

I am positive nobody will recommend this , but do you think it would even work to set it in crank mode and that would be enough to power it a hundred feet or so , or does that not work with auto trans ? I need to get it moved today ! 

I think you have multiple issues.  The security system, faulty NSS etc...should only prevent the PCM from activating the starter relay.  Manually bypassing the starter relay itself should always allow the starter to crank...assuming the starter and related circuits are all good. 

If the starter doesn't crank when bypassing the relay, you need to check out all aspects of the starter circuit first. Depending on how much you cranked on it earlier, it's possible that the starter itself has now failed.  Once you can get it to crank normally by bypassing the starter relay, then you can focus on things like the NSS or the security system that might be preventing the vehicle from starting/running.

And no...you won't be able to move an automatic with the starter motor like you could a manual. 

Edited August 27 by Black92GS

[GTPsurvivor]

In my experience it has never been multiple problems arriving at the exact same moment . Then I chase ghosts like multiple cylinder misfire codes . I replace the spark wires once a year and the problem over .

You must have misunderstood , the starter still cranks every time I activate it manually with the crank bypass . And the fuel pump activates . Everything activates except ignition . So its an electronic problem preventing ignition but none of us know what it is . I wish someone did . 

[Black92GS]

13 minutes ago, GTPsurvivor said:

In my experience it has never been multiple problems arriving at the exact same moment . Then I chase ghosts like multiple cylinder misfire codes . I replace the spark wires once a year and the problem over .

You must have misunderstood , the starter still cranks every time I activate it manually with the crank bypass . And the fuel pump activates . Everything activates except ignition . So its an electronic problem preventing ignition but none of us know what it is . I wish someone did . 

I definitely misunderstood then.  I was under the impression that bypassing the starter relay stopped working altogether as well.

The GM security systems of that era are supposed to cut fuel and inhibit cranking. When it comes to the fuel cut though...I'm not sure if they cut the pump, or the the injectors, or both.  Unless you've verified that you for sure have no spark occurring, hearing the fuel pump and having fuel pressure at the Schroeder isn't an indication that the vehicle is actually injecting that fuel, especially if there are indications that the security system is the culprit. The spark on those is fully controlled by the ICM, with the ECM only controlling the timing. So even with the security system inhibiting vehicle, you should still have spark.  

If you have spark, you might be able to have a helper shoot some brake clean at the throttle body and be able to run the vehicle just enough to limp it to a different spot.  

[GTPsurvivor]

OK I get it . It certainly appears that no sparks are occurring which alone would indict the ICM . However the fact that I need to override the crank relay just to get the starter moving , implies some other system is disallowing any crank AND spark and probably the fuel injection . I suspected the ATS but that light doesn't come on nor the message on the orange display console. But whatever the system is , it is telling the other systems to not crank or spark / inject . I can probably borrow a spark tester from auto zone to narrow that down. I watched a video where a guy was diagnosing the same issue for same year and model car  and he started with a handheld transponder detector to ensure the key was transponding , then pulled off the bezel and found a damaged transponder ring . I immediately pulled off the key bezel and do not see an such copper ring . Wtf ? Why is it not there ? And how would it disappear if it was there before ? I know if the transponder key and corresponding ignition ring don't communicate then all systems are shut down . Which is what is happening whether that's the cause or not . 

[Black92GS]

9 minutes ago, GTPsurvivor said:

OK I get it . It certainly appears that no sparks are occurring which alone would indict the ICM . However the fact that I need to override the crank relay just to get the starter moving , implies some other system is disallowing any crank AND spark and probably the fuel injection . I suspected the ATS but that light doesn't come on nor the message on the orange display console. But whatever the system is , it is telling the other systems to not crank or spark / inject . I can probably borrow a spark tester from auto zone to narrow that down. I watched a video where a guy was diagnosing the same issue for same year and model car  and he started with a handheld transponder detector to ensure the key was transponding , then pulled off the bezel and found a damaged transponder ring . I immediately pulled off the key bezel and do not see an such copper ring . Wtf ? Why is it not there ? And how would it disappear if it was there before ? I know if the transponder key and corresponding ignition ring don't communicate then all systems are shut down . Which is what is happening whether that's the cause or not . 

Does the check engine light come on when the key is in the run position? From a high level perspective, the security system and the ignition switch position is controlled via the BCM.  When the key is turned to the start position, the BCM validates that the key is "authorized", and then sends an authorized crank request to the PCM.  The PCM will check that the transmission is in Park or Neutral, and then activates the starter relay to crank the engine. All of those need to check out for the starter to crank when the key is turned. 

A failed ignition switch could result in the PCM not being turned on with the key.  In that case, everything may seem to work correctly from within the car...but the PCM will be offline and nothing will happen.  Manually energizing the relay and cranking won't allow the car to start, as the PCM isn't there to control the injectors...but the ICM will still have spark as it can run independently of the PCM. The check engine light should be MIA when the key is in the run position when this is the case. 

As for the lack of the "copper ring" around the ignition bezel...GM used a few different theft deterrent systems.  The main 2 in use at this time were Passlock and PassKey 3.  Passlock contained everything within the lock cylinder, but nothing in the key.  Any key that is physically correct and that turns the lock cylinder is considered "authorized" to start the vehicle.  The PassKey system used a transponder in the key, and would have an induction ring around the ignition to read that.  The physical keys were also stamped with PK3 or a circled + symbol to indicate which system the key is for. The lack of the induction ring itself may simply mean that your vehicle uses the Passlock system instead. 

 

[GTPsurvivor]

Hi my only remaining key (since somebody stole the other one) has PK3 stamped on the side, so it narrows that down.  But I couldn't find the induction ring unless it's very thin and embedded within the bezel.  That's why I started going down that rabbit hole..

Far as the lights, pretty much every light comes on except the ATS, and I know the reason for most of the lights.  Missing O2 sensors, ABS offline, other non-critical systems.  But nothing to indicate anything unusual, and it won't throw any codes because the battery fuses removed and replaced.  No DTC. 

I will investigate this PK3 scenario further but, you're right all systems are go except ignition, that's the problem.  Whatever the system, it's determined to not allow ignition and not giving the go-ahead to the crank, or to the S terminal on the starter, or probably ICM and fuel injectors.  

 

Edited August 28 by GTPsurvivor
thin instead of thing

[GTPsurvivor]

Summary:  CEL and ATS lights are not coming on. 

No ignition even when bypassing the crank relay, which is the only way to crank the starter  . 

No spark detected . 

Pulleys turn when cranking . 

Starting attempted in every gear, may rule out NSS . 

ICM or ignition switch ? And what's the best way to figure that out ? 

Edited September 7 by GTPsurvivor
engine lights

[GTPsurvivor]

ICM delivering proper voltage to crank sensor, but nothing cranks.  Everything lights up when the key is turned but nothing happens in ignition phase.  Anyone? Bueller?

[Schurkey]

1 hour ago, GTPsurvivor said:

ICM delivering proper voltage to crank sensor, but nothing cranks.  Everything lights up when the key is turned but nothing happens in ignition phase.

1. The ignition module doesn't deliver voltage to the crankshaft position sensor.

2.  Connect your voltmeter to the "S" terminal of the starter motor.  Do you have system voltage at the "S" terminal when the key is turned to "Start"?

Either you have power to the "S" terminal, and the starter/solenoid/main battery cable has failed; or you have no power to the "S" terminal.  In that case, the problem is in the control circuit--battery to ignition switch, to safety switch(es), to the starter solenoid.

[rcLord510]

2 hours ago, GTPsurvivor said:

ICM delivering proper voltage to crank sensor, but nothing cranks.  Everything lights up when the key is turned but nothing happens in ignition phase.  Anyone? Bueller?

Wonder if it is the pk3 system, that seems to be what everything is leading to. Does anyone know if there’s some sort of indicator the pk3 system is active?