Caster alignment on 1g w bodies

[GranPrix]

Hi this is a follow up to a thread I started last fall about alignment on these cars. I know that caster and camber are both non adjustable, on my car the caster on the right is definitely way too positive and it doesnt return to center when making a right turn. (Left turns it returns just fine) What are some things that could cause misaligned caster on these cars? The Car has never been in an accident, and it doesnt wear tires at all.

 

my ball joints are good, my control arm bushings are cracked but its not wearing tires, what else could cause positive caster on these? There arent many failure points on these so i dont know why this issue is so hard to fix. 
 

Its a 95 grand prix

[55trucker]

sure you're not confusing Caster with Camber?

Camber is the angle of the wheels vertical axis in relation to the vehicles vertical axis. Positive camber leans the top of the wheel outward (away) from the vehicle. Negative camber leans the top of the wheel inboard towards the vehicle.

Caster is the vertical angle of the steering axis in relation to the vertical centreline thru the lower & upper ball joint position. Positive caster leans the steering axis to the rear whereas negative leans the same axis to the front.

On these platform cars the Caster is generally 2.5 degrees positive. The OEM Camber is approx .75 degree positive, the max is 1.2 degrees positive.

Generally both are not adjustable, one can alter the camber angle by ovalling out the 3 shock tower thru holes *across* the width of the car to dial in more negative camber or oval the holes longitudinally to alter the caster angle.

In your case when was the last time the car was on an alignment rack to see what the settings are? Without the alignment rack measurements one is really just guessing at what the issue may be.

Caster usually doesn't cause tire wear, but uneven side to side camber settings will.

 

 

[GranPrix]

its definitely caster, not camber, if it was camber, I would be wearing tires, I have been driving it like this for over 15,000 miles and haven't had any tire wear. camber also doesn't affect the returnability of the steering whee. l don't have access to an alignment machine and last time I got it aligned the printer "wasnt working". I am just curious what could cause it to be off, because there aren't many things on these cars to affect that angle except for maybe the control arm bushings? I don't know. 

[55trucker]

Well, as I said one needs to get the vehicle up on an alignment rack to positively see what the measurements are.

You state that the ball joints are not a question mark, are the struts freely turning? Are both strut bearings in proper working condition?....as in..*not dried out*

*Assuming* that nothing is physically out of proper setting with the wheels *etc* ..is the rack healthy?

Does the steering wheel freely move in both directions with the same amount of effort?

[GranPrix]

steering is tight in both directions when the car is not moving, I have checked the tie rods and rack for play and there is none/ very little (car has 186k miles on it)

but once I start driving there is play when going to the right and the car likes to pull hard in that direction when there is a road crown. (I know that a little pull to the right is normal on a crowned road, but this one is much more aggressive)

 steering feels normal to the left which is a classic indicator of a positive caster angle. I know that the angle is positive, I just want to know what would cause a positive caster angle in the front of these cars.

Could ball joints also cause the angle to be off from OEM spec?

They dont have any play in them but I have some on the shelf from another car I could slap in easily.

Also I dont know if this is related but the steering feels much more over boosted / easier to turn compared to my friends 04 grand prix. 

[55trucker]

47 minutes ago, GranPrix said:

 steering is tight in both directions when the car is not moving

I just want to know what would cause a positive caster angle in the front of these cars.

Also I dont know if this is related but the steering feels much more over boosted / easier to turn compared to my friends 04 grand prix. 

What I was referring to is..is the steering wheel action the same in both directions, raise the front end off the ground & without the engine running turn the steering wheel full lock to lock.....is the amount of labor to turn the wheel the same in both directions? Now do the same with the engine running....

The OEM caster IS positive, the top of the strut is leaned to the rear of the car by default, as I stated the degree angle is approx 2.5 degrees.

 

Comparing a gen 1 with a gen 2 is like comparing apples & oranges. Two completely different suspension designs, different rack designs.  The 04 may very well  be equipped with variable assist steering. 

 

[jiggity76]

2 hours ago, 55trucker said:

What I was referring to is..is the steering wheel action the same in both directions, raise the front end off the ground & without the engine running turn the steering wheel full lock to lock.....is the amount of labor to turn the wheel the same in both directions? Now do the same with the engine running....

The OEM caster IS positive, the top of the strut is leaned to the rear of the car by default, as I stated the degree angle is approx 2.5 degrees.

 

Comparing a gen 1 with a gen 2 is like comparing apples & oranges. Two completely different suspension designs, different rack designs.  The 04 may very well  be equipped with variable assist steering. 

 

I think the rack in the International is not good anymore.  I get a lot of kick back when going over driveway entries and such.  The steering wheel will kick in my hand.  What do you think?  My steering wheel is off center and it definitely needs an alignment.  I have a NOS rack, probably should just put it in and get all the suspension parts put in as well.  The camber is off I feel too.

The power steering pump is making an odd noise as well.  I probably should have put in a new pump and lines when the drivetrain was out but didn't.  IDK, maybe later on this year or next.  I want to now focus on the STE this year.  I've learned a lot from the Olds, won't make as many mistakes on the STE because of it.

Edited April 30 by jiggity76

[55trucker]

^ Greg, what fluid are you making use of in the steering system? trans fluid or power steering fluid?

Trans fluid is NOT the proper fluid for the system. It generally has a lower viscosity than power steering fluid, due to the friction modifiers can cause a whining in the pump, over time can ruin the seals in the rack, ps fluid is thicker & the system will function smoother.

Seeing as the car is equipped with the 3.4 LQ1 is the original return line with the cooler extension in there? are you getting any sort of shimmy in the steering wheel when on center ( car is going straight)?

Edited April 30 by 55trucker

[GranPrix]

Sorry, I meant negative caster. I tried the test with the front end off the ground and it feels fine in both directions with car off and with car on. Its only when the car is moving down the road when the car feels like it has more play on the right side. Last fall I put a new right outer tie rod in it thinking it would eliminate the issue but it didn't. While I was in there I checked the inner tie rod and it was tight. Could a misaligned subframe cause negative caster on one side?

[GranPrix]

14 hours ago, 55trucker said:

Comparing a gen 1 with a gen 2 is like comparing apples & oranges. Two completely different suspension designs, different rack designs.  The 04 may very well  be equipped with variable assist steering. 

I always assumed all w bodies were the same up front and just had different rear suspension. guess I'm wrong about that. 

Also, do 3100 PS pumps have flow restrictors like type II pumps do? If so, I want to swap a higher restricting flow restrictor for increased steering feel, If I remember there about $20 from turnonesteering.com

Edited April 30 by GranPrix

[jiggity76]

10 hours ago, 55trucker said:

^ Greg, what fluid are you making use of in the steering system? trans fluid or power steering fluid?

Trans fluid is NOT the proper fluid for the system. It generally has a lower viscosity than power steering fluid, due to the friction modifiers can cause a whining in the pump, over time can ruin the seals in the rack, ps fluid is thicker & the system will function smoother.

Seeing as the car is equipped with the 3.4 LQ1 is the original return line with the cooler extension in there? are you getting any sort of shimmy in the steering wheel when on center ( car is going straight)?

Yes, absolutely using power steering fluid.  I actually flushed the system and bought some fluid from my local GM dealer.  All I know is that I used power steering fluid, can't for sure say the previous owner did or not.

Yes, the what I'm assuming original line is still there and unsure of the cooler.  Can you elaborate please?

I am getting a shimmy thru the steering wheel when going straight down the road at very low speeds like coming up to a stop light or whatever.  I'm assuming it's the tires as they're extremely old and dry rotted.  Pretty sure I have a broken belt in at least one of the front tires or maybe all of them.  I only drive it thru town, never take it on the highway or Interstate as I definitely don't trust them at higher speeds.  They're on the to do list after I get the front end parts replaced and aligned.

Edited April 30 by jiggity76

[55trucker]

12 minutes ago, GranPrix said:

Sorry, I meant negative caster. I tried the test with the front end off the ground and it feels fine in both directions with car off and with car on. Its only when the car is moving down the road when the car feels like it has more play on the right side. Last fall I put a new right outer tie rod in it thinking it would eliminate the issue but it didn't. While I was in there I checked the inner tie rod and it was tight. Could a misaligned subframe cause negative caster on one side?

If the subframe is misaligned that means it was lowered some time in the past or an impact moved it. There are alignment pins used to locate the subframe before one tightens up the fasteners. If one side is trailing then the opposite side would be leading. An alignment rack would see that. I'm more inclined to think that the lower control arm on the right side is off angle (damage). But before you condemn the arm or anything else closely check the right side wheel bearing to ensure it is not loose in any way. You have repeatedly said that right side feels as tho there is *play*.

[55trucker]

28 minutes ago, jiggity76 said:

Yes, absolutely using power steering fluid.  I actually flushed the system and bought some fluid from my local GM dealer.  All I know is that I used power steering fluid, can't for sure say the previous owner did or not.

Yes, the what I'm assuming original line is still there and unsure of the cooler.  Can you elaborate please?

I am getting a shimmy thru the steering wheel when going straight down the road at very low speeds like coming up to a stop light or whatever.  I'm assuming it's the tires as they're extremely old and dry rotted.  Pretty sure I have a broken belt in at least one of the front tires or maybe all of them.  I only drive it thru town, never take it on the highway or Interstate as I definitely don't trust them at higher speeds.  They're on the to do list after I get the front end parts replaced and aligned.

Personally, get a decent set of tires on Before you get an alignment done. The PS return line is an extended length piping, there are two sections to it, the shorter section is at the ps pump, it feeds down the front of the engine, there is a flexible hose on the end that connects to the major return piping that then feeds around the subframe to the front portion in front of the oilpan, then back along the same route all the way back to the rack. It's the total length of the return line that acts as a cooler for the fluid.

Without any more info on your steering components condition I'll say this........when these cars were new there were issues with the steering wheel having a shimmy when *on center*, our car wasn't free of this issue, when at 8,000kms the steering developed that shimmy. It went back to the dealer who on the 1st visit replaced the ps pump thinking that the relief valve was fluttering, on the 2nd visit  replaced the rack thinking the pressure seals inside were defective, on the 3rd visit  removed all of the extended return piping to shorten up the distance between the rack & the ps pump in an effort to settle down any fluctuations in pressure. Doing #3 solved the issue with the shimmy.  But that doesn't necessarily mean that doing #3 first could've/would've solved the issue.

Edited April 30 by 55trucker

[GranPrix]

15 minutes ago, 55trucker said:

If the subframe is misaligned that means it was lowered some time in the past or an impact moved it. There are alignment pins used to locate the subframe before one tightens up the fasteners. If one side is trailing then the opposite side would be leading. An alignment rack would see that. I'm more inclined to think that the lower control arm on the right side is off angle (damage). But before you condemn the arm or anything else closely check the right side wheel bearing to ensure it is not loose in any way. You have repeatedly said that right side feels as tho there is *play*.

I just replaced the right front hub as it was making a groaning noise and the caster issue is still there which is the reason for my post. I thought that replacing the hub would have fixed it. No play of the wheel in any direction when the car is not moving. Again, the steering linkages and the wheel don't have any "play" in them at all. But once the car starts rolling down the road, there is a little more play on right side than there is on the left. I am also curious about the control arm, it looks the same as the other side to me but it might be bent slightly, just enough to throw off the caster angle. I will attempt to check the alignment pins on the subframe when I get home. I also will try to ask my friend who works at tires plus If I can put my car on their rack after hours but I don't really want to pay $100 for an alignment if the only thing they can adjust is toe...

[55trucker]

Well, if the car does have a slightly bent control arm the alignment rack SHOULD see that instantly. The wheel sensors will send the info to the processor, there will be an obvious left/right setback reading on the display, the arm would be bent to the rear inducing a lower than expected caster angle reading at that corner.

[GranPrix]

4 minutes ago, 55trucker said:

Well, if the car does have a slightly bent control arm the alignment rack SHOULD see that instantly. The wheel sensors will send the info to the processor, there will be an obvious left/right setback reading on the display, the arm would be bent to the rear inducing a lower than expected caster angle reading at that corner.

Seems like that may be the issue, but wouldnt it be wearing tires if it was bent? Thats the weird thing about this whole ordeal. Both the front 2 tires have the same amount of wear and they have been driven over 15k miles since I put new ones on (my commute is 100 miles a day)

[jiggity76]

1 hour ago, 55trucker said:

Personally, get a decent set of tires on Before you get an alignment done. The PS return line is an extended length piping, there are two sections to it, the shorter section is at the ps pump, it feeds down the front of the engine, there is a flexible hose on the end that connects to the major return piping that then feeds around the subframe to the front portion in front of the oilpan, then back along the same route all the way back to the rack. It's the total length of the return line that acts as a cooler for the fluid.

Without any more info on your steering components condition I'll say this........when these cars were new there were issues with the steering wheel having a shimmy when *on center*, our car wasn't free of this issue, when at 8,000kms the steering developed that shimmy. It went back to the dealer who on the 1st visit replaced the ps pump thinking that the relief valve was fluttering, on the 2nd visit  replaced the rack thinking the pressure seals inside were defective, on the 3rd visit  removed all of the extended return piping to shorten up the distance between the rack & the ps pump in an effort to settle down any fluctuations in pressure. Doing #3 solved the issue with the shimmy.  But that doesn't necessarily mean that doing #3 first could've/would've solved the issue.

Ah yes, I know what you're referring to now.  I was wondering why that section was so long and why it went all around the cradle.

Interesting about the rack.  I'm assuming my car has it's original rack at 153,000 miles but who knows for sure.  I do have an NOS ready to go into the car so might as well use it.  Since I'm in there, I'll replace the lines, seals, and pump as well.  What's the point of having all these parts if they don't go to use.  Thank you as always.

This metal hard line that goes to the front of the cradle...that's what you're referring too right as the extended length piping?

 

[55trucker]

3 hours ago, jiggity76 said:

This metal hard line that goes to the front of the cradle...that's what you're referring too right as the extended length piping?

 

Yeah, that's it Greg, up here in the salt belt they are prone to rotting out if not coated to protect them. 

[55trucker]

5 hours ago, GranPrix said:

Seems like that may be the issue, but wouldnt it be wearing tires if it was bent? Thats the weird thing about this whole ordeal. Both the front 2 tires have the same amount of wear and they have been driven over 15k miles since I put new ones on (my commute is 100 miles a day)

Caster won't cause tire wear, if the caster is out of adjustment the vertical angle of the axis is just *off*. If indeed this IS your problem then it's possible that somewhere back up the road the issue has been *masked* by a previous shop.

You didn't state whether the vehicle actually pulls to the right on a flat road, is the right front caliper dragging?

[jiggity76]

49 minutes ago, 55trucker said:

Yeah, that's it Greg, up here in the salt belt they are prone to rotting out if not coated to protect them. 

Thank you.  With my car being an Oklahoma car, no salt issues but I'm still going to replace it.

[GranPrix]

2 hours ago, 55trucker said:

Caster won't cause tire wear, if the caster is out of adjustment the vertical angle of the axis is just *off*. If indeed this IS your problem then it's possible that somewhere back up the road the issue has been *masked* by a previous shop.

You didn't state whether the vehicle actually pulls to the right on a flat road, is the right front caliper dragging?

I know that caster doesnt cause tire wear, I was just implying that if the control arm is bent then the camber angle might also be off and might wear the tires. The shock towers at the top look slightly ovaled out towards the center of the car so i bet they did that to "mask" the issue like you stated.  I cant think of anything else that could cause a bad caster angle on these, and my control arm is pretty crusty after 29 years of Minnesota weather (only reason its not in the junkyard from the rust is because the previous owner fluid filmed it frequently LOL)

 

It doesnt pull on a "flat" road, and the caliper is fine.