Help with a No Crank, No Start

[Krellmon]

Hello all. I'm new to this forum and I hope this is the right place to ask. I've got a 2000 Buick Regal LS with ~125000 miles on it. A few months back, I walked out to the car, a day after changing the battery and motor mounts, and it has been a no crank, no start since. The first solution was to replace the ignition switch (didn't fix my problem, but I left the new one in). At this point I tried to pull codes. The OBD2 reader I have is just a bluetooth adapter that I use with Torque Pro on my phone. It was not reading anything so I called up a friend and he brought a proper Snap-On Verus D10 reader and it still wasn't reading any codes despite the "Service Engine Soon" light being lit. The history codes the reader could find were,

B2960 - Security System Sensor Data Incorrect But Valid

B2958 - Security System Sensor Data Circuit High

B3106 - Remote Function Actuator Link Parity Error

B2961 - Key in Ignition Circuit Malfunction

B3094 - Undocumented Code

Based on these codes I decided to replace the Body Control Module. After swapping in a remanufactured Cardone and doing the relearn procedure, the security light has gone off, but I still am having a no crank, no start and the Service Engine Soon Light is still lit. The guy with the scanner recommended to replace the Passlock Sensor but I disconnected it under the dash and with the key in the ignition, I am still reading the same resistance across the key as across the wires. When the key is in the run position, I can hear the fuel pump kick on, but as soon as I crank all the lights on the dash go out and the gauges zero out until it goes back to run. All fuses are good. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[94 olds vert]

If the lights are going out and the gauges go to zero while trying to crank that sounds like an electrical issues to me. I would check the battery connections. Especially the ground. Check to see how many volts the battery has. A healthy battery should be around ~12.6 volts. 

The engine light will be on until the vehicle starts unless there are codes then it will remain lit. 

[Krellmon]

Battery is little low voltage at 12.1 volts currently as I've been using it to diagnose. I'll charge it up and report back. I attached a small video of the dash when I try to crank. All the lights and gauges except for the "Service engine soon" and low coolant(it's been sitting with a leak) go off when cranking, not all.

[94 olds vert]

It seems like you have power, and then when you go to crank you have nothing. I've dealt with that issues before as I have let my cars sit for long periods of time. It's typically a low battery, or a wiring issue (ground wire, wire to starter, or something like that). Corrosion sucks.

Dielectric grease on your wiring connections makes a big difference. 

[Blue02GPGT]

I agree with the above, also double check everything you touched when replacing the battery and motor mounts. Loose or missed connections, pinched wires, etc.

[Krellmon]

Battery is charged. My multimeter is reading 12.75 volts. I'm in for the night but tomorrow I'll try some dielectric grease on the main connections. I see a little bit of corrosion in the ground to chassis wire so if anything , I'll order a new one after trying to grease and check the connections. I appreciate the advice and I'll keep you all posted.

[Schurkey]

Do you have power to the bigass cable at the starter solenoid?  Should have battery voltage.  When the starter cranks, the voltage at the battery will drop.  No matter what, that cable should have battery voltage.

Do you have power to the purple wire attached to the starter solenoid "S" terminal when the key is turned to "Start"?  No power on the purple wire with the key turned to "Start", no starter cranking.

Did you ever check the fuses?

[Krellmon]

Fuses have been checked inside and outside 3 times. Red cable at starter has 12.75 volts. The purple cable on the starter is not showing any voltage on start. I've been under the car and there are no cables pinched or broken as far as I can tell. I only lifted the engine about 2 inches and eased it back down, and it ran after I changed the motor mount. Cleaned and reconnected the body ground right next to the battery and the transmission case ground. Still nothing. There's a very small amount of corrosion on the body ground wire right at the eyelet on the body, but it's pretty miniscule. Any other troubleshooting tips? 

[Cutlass350]

Fwiw, this is likely easy to find.  But, it will take a little time/effort.
However, also, there is a slight chance that a main wire/connector has corroded through.  Note, I said slight.

This could be done very quickly with 2 people.  It takes longer with one person.

Here is what you must check (or, check things randomly, and hope for the best :))
1) Put the DVM probes directly on the battery terminals
Turn car to start, note any voltage changes.

2) Put the one DVM probes directly on the battery POS terminal, put the other on a good solid engine ground.
Turn car to start, note any voltage changes.

3) Put the one DVM probes directly on the battery POS terminal, put the other on a good solid body ground.
Turn car to start, note any voltage changes.

4) Put the one DVM probes directly on the battery NEG terminal, put the other on  the POS battery cable.
Turn car to start, note any voltage changes.

5) Put the one DVM probes directly on the battery NEG terminal, put the other on fuse for the cigarette lighter.  (this is not a switched fuse, it may eliminate the ignition switch).
Turn car to start, note any voltage changes.


You will then move to the ignition switch connector, or elsewhere.

Try to find an ignition switch diagram for your model and year online.  That will help a lot.

Fwiw, I've had three cars that have had main power wires go bad.
There's a youtube video that shows a similar thing on an early 2000's Mercedes.  So, I guess it has become more common, with the use of cheaper (but still better than average) wires.

However, ~99.99% of the time, it's a bad/poor connection, or bad wire over all (such as it's falling apart).
 

Good Luck!
 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Cutlass350

[55trucker]

Try doing this....it will not diagnose where the issue is but....

with the ign key on in run position, using a simple screwdriver or one of the ends of your booster cables with the jaws open, bridge the large battery terminal & the small solenoid terminal of the starter, do NOT go to ground anywhere, will the starter crank & the engine fire?

[Krellmon]

I appreciate all the tips. It started raining but I'll have someone to help turn the key for me tomorrow. Hopefully I'll have more info tomorrow. Thanks again guys, I've been at this for awhile.

[55trucker]

Here's something to ponder.......is that Regal equipped with PATS?

[Krellmon]

I'm assuming you meant VATS. If not, I'm not sure what you mean. It is equipped with VATS Passkey 2. The Passkey sensor is reading the right resistance and the BCM has been replaced since this started... The security relearn on BCM has taken the security light off. 

[Cutlass350]

A security/VATS error won't shut the power down. It lights up "security light", and (in software) it prevents the starter enable relay from being enabled.
My key switch was acting up, so I replaced it s number of years back.

[55trucker]

8 hours ago, Krellmon said:

I'm assuming you meant VATS. If not, I'm not sure what you mean. It is equipped with VATS Passkey 2. The Passkey sensor is reading the right resistance and the BCM has been replaced since this started... The security relearn on BCM has taken the security light off. 

Yeah, GM refers to the anti theft as VATS, Ford calls it PATS, all of my daily drivers are Fords....

I don't have any gen2 service manuals on hand but here's a basic schematic that should apply to the Regal.

If you've got no voltage at the solenoid when you attempt a start you have to use your diagnostic prowess & start back tracing the circuit to find out where the problem originates.

Dead at the solenoid? go backwards to the transaxle switch, if that's dead as well move on to the crank relay, where the crank relay is concerned pull the relay & test the pins for circuit continuity, probe both sides of all the contact points (in & out) everywhere trying the key in *start*. Backprobe all of the pins with your meter to test & locate where the problem lies. To me it sounds as tho you've possibly got a short to ground when you turn the key to *start*.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by 55trucker

[Krellmon]

Well guys I have good news and bad news. While troubleshooting today, I was switching identical relays around and the car started. Moments later, after shutting it off to put the air box back together, the car would not start again. Another 20 minutes of messing with relays and it started again so I drove it around the neighborhood for 10 minutes or so. It ran amazing for having sat for so long. I parked it back in the driveway and it has started without fail 5 times. I'll try again tomorrow to make sure it's good, but it's working for now. I didn't knowingly fix any issue that I'm aware of so I'm a little confused but I'm really happy it is working now. Thanks for all the troubleshooting help guys. It kept me working on it. I'll keep this thread going if it has issues tomorrow, but I'll call it fixed for now. Hoping it's not an intermittent issue. 

[Schurkey]

Of course it's intermittent.

Verify the metal contacts that the relay plugs into in the electrical center.  Make sure they're not loose on the relay blades.  Moderate-to-good chance that swapping relays enabled actual contact with the terminals in the electrical center, but as soon as vibration gets to them, you'll lose contact again and it won't start.

Yes, there could be other problems, but that seems the most likely given your statement about moving relays and suddenly it worked.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Schurkey

[Krellmon]

18 hours ago, Schurkey said:

Of course it's intermittent.

Verify the metal contacts that the relay plugs into in the electrical center.  Make sure they're not loose on the relay blades.  Moderate-to-good chance that swapping relays enabled actual contact with the terminals in the electrical center, but as soon as vibration gets to them, you'll lose contact again and it won't start.

Yes, there could be other problems, but that seems the most likely given your statement about moving relays and suddenly it worked.

I think you hit the nail on the head. How would you go about adjusting the terminals in the fuse box? 

[Pontiac6KSTEAWD]

I would have 2 suggestions...

Power both sides of the fuse panel. Take a jumper cable, and go from the battery, to the power lead on the top of the fuse panel. Check for a starting condition.

the second one, might not provide any info, and I am not sure how the 2000 model plays into the power systems, so this may be a irrelevant test. But, take the same jumper lead, and take it to the large stud at the starter, and try to start.

Both of these will just show if their is a power issue on the front side of the fuse panel, or in the link at the starter.

[Schurkey]

Check the relay terminals in the Electrical Center.   You could probably see the loose one(s) by comparing to the others.  Hopefully, it's merely loose, not burnt.

Pop the lock-tab, push it out the back/underside of the EC.  Tighten the terminal with a small pliers.  Push it back in the same socket it came out of.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Schurkey