fuel injectors?

[KnightOwl]

I've been doing some reading about top swap and turbo upgrades.

 

It looks like any boosted application needs better fuel delivery over what the stock L36 injectors can provide. (obviously...more air, more fuel) but I've noted that there don't seem to be any higher PPH injectors for the L36 (or am I wrong?) Everything suggests going to L67 injectors...and they require a different wire harness connector?

 

When you do a top swap, is a section of wire harness robbed from the donor car or do you have to cut/splice new connectors? Is this what has to be done if you turbo a L36?

 

Clarification please?  

[Imp558]

L67 injectors are EV1.

[KnightOwl]

So you cant get bigger injectors that mate to the connections on the L36?

[Imp558]

No Sir. I can post some P/Ns and sources for Delphi injector plugs when you're ready. All you have to do is snip off the old and crimp on the new and they're like factory.

[Imp558]

Correction, there are EV6 injectors out there with higher flow rates but the EV1 is standard issue L67.

[KnightOwl]

Can you swap the L67 harness section (plug-n-play) or is changing the connectors the easiest way? With the L67 injectors in the heads, if you top swap are the injector leads for the L36 engine bay too short?

[Grandprix1]

Can you swap the L67 harness section (plug-n-play) or is changing the connectors the easiest way? With the L67 injectors in the heads, if you top swap are the injector leads for the L36 engine bay too short?

You’d need the fuel rail (I have one I’ll sell you with injectors). ZZP sells an adapter for them. I think you need EV1 to EV6.

[Imp558]

I think there was one plug I added a couple inches to when I did the Monte Carlo.

[KnightOwl]

Just trying to get as much info as possible for now. If I decide to go to the salvage yard and get donor parts off a L67 car I want to make sure I get the stuff I need. I had considered just getting the yard to pull the whole engine, but a friend informed me they will just cut all wires and hoses in the process. I rather surgically remove what I need. LOL

 

I'm also considering utilizing some ZZP parts...swapping the heads/intake but going with their single belt drive system. I'm considering this because they only offer the 4.0/4.2 pulley in offset model. Standard is the same as stock 3.8 but no bigger. The 4.2 still delivers 5-6lbs boost and that's plenty. Not looking to go max-out, just some more zip. (and some blower whine)  ...."Cry of the Raven"

[Imp558]

You just need an L67 crank pulley. An entire engine wouldn't be bad, if you explicitly say you want the harness they won't cut it.

[KnightOwl]

The local yard gets $300 for any complete engine...not bad for something they pull. My problem is no way to get it home or move it around once I get it there! LOL If I go pull parts I can get plenty in the back of my Escape in a box. The downside is bringing enough tools...at the garage I've got the compressor and power tools...out there its all grunt. But I do like the idea of getting what I need and not cluttering up the garage will leftover engine parts I don't need. I've also read/heard some ugly stories about pulling the balancer. If I use the bigger pulley I wont need that anyway.

[Imp558]

A harbor freight furniture dolly. Look in the cool tools thread. An Escape would make a dandy engine hauler, just choke up on the chain and roll the picker boom right in.

[digitaloutsider]

The ZZP kit is stupid, overpriced, and offers no good belt wrap (this is also the same company that wants $400 for a used Gen V M90 so, that's not surprising..). Just move to the L67 damper and pulley setup. I don't know how anyone had had any difficulty removing it, it takes 20 minutes to get it off, and that includes putting vice grips on the crank and lowering the subframe a tad. Look at this way, you're going to need to pull the damper one day to replace the CKPS, might as well just do it now. Pulling and reinstalling heads is the hard part, it's cake to swap the balancer. You will also need the L67 coil/ICM bracket while you're there.

 

You’d need the fuel rail (I have one I’ll sell you with injectors). ZZP sells an adapter for them. I think you need EV1 to EV6.

 

Later L36s are not EV6, they are the Delphi solution to a problem that didn't exist.

[Imp558]

It's faster to swap an engine than do a top swap. And with the price of gaskets alone it's got to be on par economically.

[digitaloutsider]

While I agree it may or may not pay off economically, I will absolutely argue that it is NOT faster to R&R an entire engine vs pulling the heads.

 

But on the subject of gaskets, I'm still going to pull a junkyard engine apart enough to do intake manifold gaskets, valve cover gaskets, coolant elbows, oil pan gasket, etc. The only additional gasket cost for a topswap would be the headgaskets. 

[Imp558]

A 3800 under or around 100,000 miles is but a baby. Over 150,000, yes R&R. Plenty of cars are rotted out engine donors or accident victims by 80,000 or 100,000. In the last two years I've scored two L67's in that range, and for $250 each. The only reason I had heads done on the first one was I intended it for another purpose.

[White93z34]

I think a decent argument could be made either way for top-swap vs swap.

 

There is absolutely no way I'd dump a 3800 in a engine bay without at minimum oil pan gasket, valve cover gaskets, and intake gaskets. low miles be damned they are all crap and they are all old, if they aren't leaking now they will be soon. Its not like any of it is expensive.

[Imp558]

Oil pan, intake, and valve covers are all cheap. Head gaskets are not. A top swap wouldn't typically involve the oil pan though so for the sake of comparison that's moot.

[KnightOwl]

I like the idea of the top swap for the opportunity it provides. I like the idea of studding the block and swapping on heads with better gear. I know a lot of folks here don't like ZZP, but a set of CNC ported heads with 3 angle valve job and better springs is not crazy at $1k (Having a machine shop do that same work would cost nearly the same) By the same token, the ported intake with coolant passages welded shut is also not nuts for $120. I agree there are better sources for the blower. I only considered the single belt system for the larger pulley which isn't offered in standard offset.

Better high ratio rockers would help offset the extra pressure but the tune seems to be the most important item.

 

In addition to the aforementioned gaskets and upgrades, pulling it all apart afford the chance to clean and dress things up. I do love a well detailed engine bay, which actually rates higher for me than another 10hp. Any boosted version will be more potent than my stock L36 anyway. So, L67 heads, intake, fuel rail, coil bracket, vacuum harness, injectors, plugs, and of course the blower. The PCM being the x-factor. I know many will suggest buying a tuner, but I know zip about the programming...and I've also read MANY threads saying a scan gauge is a must. I also agree swapping the crank sensor makes tons of logic if you pull the balancer.

[digitaloutsider]

If you aren't serious about big power, there's no reason to waste money on studding the block or buying performance heads or a ported manifold. The ported manifold is ultra pointless unless you're running an intercooler.

 

Agreed that a tune is critical for any build, only second to being able to scan and monitor the car.  A tuner is worth it's weight in gold, IMHO. Even if you don't know what you're doing, as long as you're buying something with lots of community support, you'll find people to guide you.

[KnightOwl]

I agree wholeheartedly the scan gauge and tuner are probably a wise investment. They're just a little intimidating when you know very little about them. I've had excellent experience in the past working with Will at Overkill Motorsports on PCM tuning but I've never run a boosted engine before. Being able to monitor and adjust feels required if you want the engine to live.

 

I want the studs more for simply replacing the torque-to-yield bolts (which I think were a silly idea to begin with) and I also think (and have seen plenty of data on) that ported manifolds and heads are beneficial for efficiency and not just max power. Any boosted application will benefit from better flow and since the top swap will have higher pressure than the stock L67, it make sense to enhance efficiency. I'd go with 1:8 or 1:9 rockers on those heads to help reduce the KR. I've already got the Powerlog manifolds and the better downpipe.

 

GM went with lower numerical gearing on the L67 cars to lower rpm at highway speed and reduce heat and wear on the blower...biggest reason I'd like to have the larger pulley but since it isn't available for the standard offset that's moot. These things are factors to me since I do a lot of highway cruising and don't want the car cooking itself on a trip.

[Grandprix1]

If your really thinking about top swapping I’ve got some left over top swap parts I can sell you.

[Imp558]

I agree changing the balancer is a better option. Cheaper, less strain on a single belt, and replace the CKP (it's going to happen anyway at some point). I use a big Impact that I call Boudica. I replaced many with a big ratchet and a hammer before Boudica so while a beast impact is easier it's certainly a task that can be completed without one.

 

 

[Galaxie500XL]

I don’t have a big impact wrench, so when trying to break the pulley bolt loose, I use the rope trick...cotton or nylon rope fed into the cylinder through the spark plug hole, then turn the engine until the rope compresses against the combustion chamber, then remove the bolt.

[digitaloutsider]

I agree wholeheartedly the scan gauge and tuner are probably a wise investment. They're just a little intimidating when you know very little about them. I've had excellent experience in the past working with Will at Overkill Motorsports on PCM tuning but I've never run a boosted engine before. Being able to monitor and adjust feels required if you want the engine to live.

 

I want the studs more for simply replacing the torque-to-yield bolts (which I think were a silly idea to begin with) and I also think (and have seen plenty of data on) that ported manifolds and heads are beneficial for efficiency and not just max power. Any boosted application will benefit from better flow and since the top swap will have higher pressure than the stock L67, it make sense to enhance efficiency. I'd go with 1:8 or 1:9 rockers on those heads to help reduce the KR. I've already got the Powerlog manifolds and the better downpipe.

 

GM went with lower numerical gearing on the L67 cars to lower rpm at highway speed and reduce heat and wear on the blower...biggest reason I'd like to have the larger pulley but since it isn't available for the standard offset that's moot. These things are factors to me since I do a lot of highway cruising and don't want the car cooking itself on a trip.

 

I'm not sure what's wrong with conventional head bolts considering virtually all factory engines come with them, including applications such as the supercharged LSA and LS9. Do you have flow charts of the stock manifold? I've personally never seen anything that suggests that it's a poor design for a stock application, so I'd love to see something if you have it. Considering I've pulled a sustained 35+ MPG out of a stock L67 with 2.93 gears on the highway (with only a tune), I'm not sure how much more efficient you're going to get for a highway cruiser. 

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but I seriously think you worry entirely too much about stuff. You're not going to "cook" anything on the highway.. If that were the case, my M90 with a 2.9" pulley on it would have been done for on the drive back from Detroit last year in 90 degree weather. I also have never seen any evidence that GM ran a lower FDR for any reason other than fuel economy. The Comp-G had 3.29s out of the factory. If they thought it would screw the blower up, they wouldn't have done it.