Hello All! Shopping for a new toy

[KnightOwl]

I'm considering 2006 Monte Carlo SS and wanted to get some knowledgeable feedback before moving on a purchase. I had originally considered a Pontiac Bonneville GXP but heard many bad things about the Northstar engine. One upon a time I owned a 2001 GP GT and it was an amazing car. I sold it to my son and he ran it into the ground...a mistake I don't plan to repeat.

 

The Monte will be a garage toy, only driven during good weather and for fun...but I still want a reliable 2nd vehicle I can use when the need may arise.

 

Please fire away with opinions and thoughts about the LS3 powered W-body and what to look out for.

 

Thanks guys!

[digitaloutsider]

I'm about to unironically defend a Northstar car, but I can't say that a N*/4T80 combination is really much worse than an LS4/4T65E.

 

Both have their share of issues.  The primary problem with the LS4 is related to DoD/AFM, which should be disabled via tune.  AFM or Active Fuel Management/DoD or Displacement on Demand is known to cause oil consumption issues, which if I understand it correctly, is due to piston ring damage.  I would avoid any higher mileage untuned LS4 for this reason. The 4T65E also is not particularly stout when mated to the LS4, and it is not common to see a rebuild needed before 100K. Get a lower mile LS4, disable AFM either electronically or mechanically and put aside a rainy day fund for a transmission, and you should be fine.

 

For the Northstar/4T80E, you're dealing with the classic headgasket/head bolt issues.  While GM improved the problem in the later engines, it was never completely fixed for the 4.0/4.6.  Your best bet for permanently fixing the issue is to contact Jake over at Northstar Performance.  4T80s have some similar solenoid issues to 4T65Es, but the transmission is much more stout overall and in the great scheme of things, is probably better.

 

Another consideration is performance. Are you wanting to keep things stock or go for more power?  In that case, the LS4 is a no-brainer as there is no shortage of great performance parts compared to the Northstar. But again, you'll be doing a transmission sooner than later.  Performance 4T65E rebuilds can be had from Triple Edge Performance.

[wstefan20]

Too bad about the grand prix! I love these cars. One thing that I will point out is that there is far more performance items at MUCH cheaper for the 3800 than the LS4.

 

The LS4 with a mild cam, LS6 intake, and tune will destroy a stock 4T65E (ask me how I know! lol) even as a daily driver. Plus they're a pain in the rear to work on since they're so cramped. 

 

I unfortunately don't have any experience with the northstar (....yet...)

 

As for the 3800, they're plentiful, easy to work on, cheap to mod, and the supercharged L67 will easily outrun a stock LS4 with less than $500 in mods (ask me how I know.... hehe)

 

That being said, I'd love to own a LS4 one day and put 10 grand making it what it could (should) be. 

[Imp558]

Too bad about the grand prix! I love these cars. One thing that I will point out is that there is far more performance items at MUCH cheaper for the 3800 than the LS4.

 

The LS4 with a mild cam, LS6 intake, and tune will destroy a stock 4T65E (ask me how I know! lol) even as a daily driver. Plus they're a pain in the rear to work on since they're so cramped. 

 

I unfortunately don't have any experience with the northstar (....yet...)

 

As for the 3800, they're plentiful, easy to work on, cheap to mod, and the supercharged L67 will easily outrun a stock LS4 with less than $500 in mods (ask me how I know.... hehe)

 

That being said, I'd love to own a LS4 one day and put 10 grand making it what it could (should) be. 

 

I feel the same, having never driven the LSX version I have no real input but a friend of mine had an L32 GP that he was looking to replace with the LS version. Took a road trip to see the car and returned home with his 3800, He said the V8 car didn't handle as nicely and didn't seem to think it was an advancement over his L32 in any way.

Factoring in a transmission that's barely adequate once we start modding the V6 version the LS3 doesn't seem like a good idea.

It would be a neat car to own if you expected to replace a tranny in the future or if it were driven gently but IMO if you want a toy the 3800 would be a better option.

[redgrandprix]

As a gxp owner im biased but i daily drive mine have put almost 60k miles on it and its still going great but the dod is turned off and i just put a cooler and shift kit in it. Its always brought up how the 3800 has cheaper performance mods but still not sure where that comes from.

 

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[digitaloutsider]

The cost of 3800 parts, especially on the used market, are at all time lows. It's the market at work, supply and demand.  It's an objective fact that modding a 3800 is cheaper.

[Imp558]

Agreed, but the real issue is not engine mods it's the transmission. LS4 (it's actually not an LS3) makes 300 HP out of the box and while 3800 parts are cheaper the issue is with still the tranny which really falls short. Had GM put the 4T80 under the LS4 it still would have suffered from inherent handling flaws due to nose heavy drivetrain.

For the fun factor a 3800 is the better bet and leaves more money on the table for mods to the engine and tranny and delivers better weight distribution since sooner or later the driver may wish to take a corner without the front tires laying on the sidewall.

[KnightOwl]

So basically this car is going to eat a transmission...just a matter of time. I don't have a problem getting a tune to disable the DoD, especially if it will help oil consumption. I also read on Overkill's site that one of their reprogrammed PCMs will help trans shifting problems and fluid temps. Not a bad investment for $150

 

I have to admit this has been frustrating search to find a decent car that isn't a problem child waiting to happen. I contacted Northstar Performance and a crate engine seemed like the way to go but total cost plus install basically came to $6k...$2k more than the price of the car. Wow.

 

I assume a fluid/filter change right away would be in order if I purchase this car...maybe a deep pan with a drain plug?

[Imp558]

And a canned tune PCM is never a truly good option, it would be better to buy a tool and do it yourself (a good investment if you may mod the car in the future anyway) or have a local do it.

[digitaloutsider]

You don't need a whole block from NP, you just need his stud kit.

 

And yes, it's frustrating. You're looking at a kinda crummy era of cars from all manufacturers. No one was doing things particularly well at the time, and I had given up on GM and bought something totally different.  For an LS4 car, I would do a fluid/filter change, TransGo shift kit, and transmission cooler before anything else. 

 

RE: canned tunes: I have no problem with Will's tunes.  IMHO, they're the best you're getting for canned tunes, and on a stock car, it's fine.

[Imp558]

The best of the worst is still not the best of anything worth having. I get where you're coming from though.

[KnightOwl]

Well its all moot now. The dealer just called and the car sold today. Back to the drawing board.

 

Thanks for all the input guys!

[Imp558]

Check back in here and there. We have our own classified section. Something may tickle your fancy.

[Nas Escobar]

Well its all moot now. The dealer just called and the car sold today. Back to the drawing board.

 

Thanks for all the input guys!

 

Honestly, I'd go for a tried and true L67 2005 Chevy Impala SS, 2004-2005 Monte Carlo SS or a 2004-2008 Grand Prix supercharged (I think they were GTP, GXP were the LS4) 

 

At this point, they're quite cheap and even though you're only good for 260 HP, you can do bolt ons and a tune and could get to the 303 the LS4 got easily. 

[wstefan20]

Well its all moot now. The dealer just called and the car sold today. Back to the drawing board.

 

Thanks for all the input guys!

Or just drive to Missouri! Last I counted there's over 30 grand prix's and monte carlos with a bad engine or transmission for around $400 with clean bodies! lol

 

On a serious note, as far as the transmission, although it seems daunting, it's really not that bad to overhaul yourself! (I'll get around to a how to sometime...) If I had the cash to I would have upgraded the internals (one of the biggest regrets ever about this car). Last time I priced, you can rebuild the top of the line equivalent of triple edge performance for around $2000 (you save over $1500). 

 

That being said, triple edge does some fantastic work. I'd love the chance to do another rebuild if the wife would ever let me! 

 

It all depends on what your goals are though. If you're looking for a cheap toy that you can make 300-350 hp on and is fun to drive and still reliable, go L67 and forget about the transmission. Unless you're doing track runs weekly, it'll hold up as a daily driver. I know plenty of gp owners here who have done just that, and they still outrun mustangs! If you're really really serious about power though, you'll want to start with the transmission and go from there. The lower engine is pretty solid, but the valvetrain will need modifying for serious power. Basically, it all starts with your foundation and kind of explodes with price from there... haha

[KnightOwl]

Blast from the past! I ran across a 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix GT with only 69k miles! This looks like it was a garage queen and is in very good shape from the pictures. I'll find out more on Monday but I hope this works. My 2001 was black with gray cloth and this one is white with dark gray leather.

 

The only downside is its in Pennsylvania, but may well be worth the drive. I do wish you could get a good modern radio with a nice screen (not a flip-up) to fit the dash space, but I recall that dance from last time. Anyway, the car looks great and I'll find out more soon.

[KnightOwl]

Not really worried about track time or crazy power mods. It just needs to sound good, be reliable and fun to drive. But thanks for the input!

[KnightOwl]

I pulled the trigger yesterday and bought the 2002 GP GT!

All other discussions aside, I just couldn't pass up such a nice, well cared for car. This was one of  those times when the pictures did not do the car enough justice. It was crazy clean inside and out, engine bay was devoid of any traces of leaks or seepage, and the underbody looked as good as either newer car I presently own. This had to be a garage queen, and with only 69k on the clock, not a hard driven one.

 

The test drive was nostalgic, and I was amazed how vibration and rattle-free the car felt. It feels very good to be back in a Pontiac.

 

Hopefully this will be my last project toy for many years to come. I've always envied people that loved a car so much they never want to part with it, and I hope this is the one for me.

 

Pictures soon!!

[Imp558]

Congratulations! And welcome back to the world of W-Body.

[Nas Escobar]

Congrats! Will be waiting for the build thread hahaha

[KnightOwl]

Pics!

 

https://photos.smugmug.com/Timmy-Cars/i-WqpsxB7/0/b7b6a32d/M/IMG_5802-M.jpg

 

https://photos.smugmug.com/Timmy-Cars/i-BMJdpxP/0/f59cfcf9/M/IMG_5801-M.jpg

 

https://photos.smugmug.com/Timmy-Cars/i-kmk4rCm/0/23de2f51/M/IMG_5803-M.jpg

[Imp558]

Nice!

[Mitchellman]

Looks super clean! If you don't mind, what was the price tag? I'm looking for something just like this.

[rich_e777]

Agreed, but the real issue is not engine mods it's the transmission. LS4 (it's actually not an LS3) makes 300 HP out of the box and while 3800 parts are cheaper the issue is with still the tranny which really falls short. Had GM put the 4T80 under the LS4 it still would have suffered from inherent handling flaws due to nose heavy drivetrain.

For the fun factor a 3800 is the better bet and leaves more money on the table for mods to the engine and tranny and delivers better weight distribution since sooner or later the driver may wish to take a corner without the front tires laying on the sidewall.

A bit off topic but I thought the question might have some relevance. On the subject of nose heavy FWD Ws, if one was to relocate the battery to the trunk and maybe add a little weight to the trunk, would this help balance out the car in any significant way?

[digitaloutsider]

A battery weighs what, 10-15 pounds? There's no meaningful change coming from that.