Load & alignment

[Psych0matt]

[98OldsIntrigue]

You're an idiot. I guess if your point was to alienate some very knowledgeable people by asking a question and then arguing about the answer (which apparently you already know?) then congrats, you win the Internet [emoji322]

I guess you ought to OWN this thing by now.

 

No I do NOT spend umpteen gillion hours posting the Internet. Apparently you do, and that's yer prerogative. But you've added NOTHING here, and maybe your pattern? Unlike yourself, apparently, I don't read many posts that don't pertain, mind my own business, and CERTAINLY don't feel any need to defend every defenseless impertinence. I've still GOT all my teeth, and very few cavities. A busybody is a weasel, plain and simple, and most folks recognize that right off. 

 

I don't MIND IN THE LEAST alienating each & every idiot (and/or weasel) that intentionally tries to kick dust on anything I might remark, and too bad so sad if it rubs their butter cups the wrong way. 

[98OldsIntrigue]

 

 

You're CATCHING ON, a-wipe.

[98OldsIntrigue]

Gotta go, but hopefully (one can ONLY hope Lol!) you won't forget! bugger the f off!

[Psych0matt]

[emoji112]

[Imp558]

Well, that was different. It truly is a shame, I'm sure his heart was in the right place. Shocking to learn Matt is a troll.

[98OldsIntrigue]

troll or butter-buddy? take yer pick

[98OldsIntrigue]

Oh sure, good 'ole Matt, he's as pure as driven snow. Might even be a virgin. And yet, first thing he does, WITH NO STAKE WHATSOEVER ('cept to butter-up somebody's butt?) and zero (evident) perception of the topic at hand, feels compelled, without any respect whatsoever, to take to calling anybody he pleases an "idiot" --- a real weaselly way to try and pile on some BS. Weasels do that all the time. "I got yer back, I'm only buttering up my pal" he says to himself, and likely as not a back stabbing weasel first chance he gets. 

 

See, ya got another somebody who uses as much "sense" as this:

Since I truly can't understand what you're looking for, the best I can tell is that Imp558 truly did try to point you in the right direction

 

What kind of crock is that? First he says I truly can't understand then insinuates so-and-so "truly did try." 

If he don't UNDERSTAND, then how in Havana can he "tell" anything? Truth is, he's lost what little sense (of AT LEAST the concept at hand) he had to start

 

He can't, but uses specious language, presumptuous name-calling i.e. "dick" or "jackass" and then has to "defend" Imp558 who bowed out (block list) and left it at that. Imp558 bowed out, and I'd have LEFT IT AT THAT.

 

Imp558 showed his colors by A) starting with some sort of sexual innuendo and giving suggestions about so-and-so needing to get drunk. He couldn't/wouldn't/didn't answer the question(s) with anything but statements A) flatly wrong and misleading. And when it was pointed out, fairly straightforward, NO PERSONAL ATTACK AT ALL, resorts to ad-homonym attack (couched as "suggestions") against me. Maybe he did RIGHT by bowing out?

 

Then so-and-so comes along and gives the old "Oh, you see, it was all just in good fun." Obvious lie, obvious deceit, and obvious BS attempt just to cast aspersion. So I guess "so much for block list" Lol!

[98OldsIntrigue]

[emoji112]

Dude, you're topping-out the weasel meter!

Go butter yer OWN butt as Imp558 has probably had his fill? It looks like he's maybe had all he can stand with yours? 

Or maybe there's no end to you two slathering each other up? Perhaps you two can do Shaun next?

 

It's been a long day, and I've wasted to much time on this little junior league cotillion. Enough already Lol!

[Grandprix1]

I don't normally put my input into threads that I have no idea what they are talking about as I am young just starting college and just like to enjoy my car and fix things as the break with the exception of a few performance parts here and there... How ever I do have to say the IMP558, Shaun (ADMIN FOR ONE) pyschomatt and numerous others here on the forum are EXTREMELY helpful people and know what they are talking about. Half the things on this forum don't really apply to me because I have a 2nd Gen Grand Prix GT (L36) Now shaun seems to get irritated that I keep throwing money at it to make it faster etc and I understand where he's coming from the money spent is not worth the gains and I fully agree but it makes me happy and it makes the car most importantly MINE. The people here are extremely helpful, knowledgeable, and most importantly nice and caring people to talk to. Like shaun said we aren't driving a Corvette or hell for that matter even a Camaro. It was a car designed to be sporty but not to be taken to the track every day. both my cousins drive high horsepower Camaros, My best friend drives a high horsepower Corvette and they to have been EXTREMELY helpful with yes thats a good thing to do or no your going in over you head after all they know me best. 

 

First we should respect our admins especially since they are VERY active on this forum and keep all the information up to date and are patient with us and make sure that we keep interest in cars that the rest of the world doesn't give a damn about. Now I've never been the one to step out and give my own opinion as I'm very kept to myself etc. Take a look at my forum in the Members ride section (Grandprix1's 2002 Grand Prix GT) and look at all the advice and help I've been given... We need any and all helpful and relevant information here as the interest in these cars is shrinking IMO. But what makes it worth owning and caring for these cars are when you take them to shows (if your into that) its the people that come up and are AMAZED at how well the car has been taken care of (maybe driven hard a lot but taken care of) and tell you how they used to have one and how it was just a good all around car the they wish they didn't get rid of. 

 

If you don't like our input and advice please go off to one of the numerous other Facebook or Internet forums and like shaun said you will quickly realize what you left behind. Im on GPF and I'm not active as I just don't like how people throw others away. 

 

Ive driven my car very hard lots of times. Im very addicted to how that car takes corners with very mild suspension upgrades (see my signature). Ive had no issues with uneven tire wear with the forces that I've put on the steering and suspension parts especially when I've autocrossed the car a few times. Now I cant speak for the first gens but for mine id say what ever the alignment it was given 4-5 years ago was pretty good. It was done when the PO put new tires on it at 25k miles. We bought the car with 28k and its now just shy of 50k. It has never given me an issue, scared me a few times yes other then that no. 

 

I don't have the knowledge and experience with these cars as most others do but I know enough about my car that I know (mostly) what I'm talking about or so I think. Now I'm sure ill be thrown all sorts of crap for putting my input in and id like to see how the rest of the members handle that cause like I said I just graduated high school and I'm about to start college (Financial Major). We've tried to help and give our input but your just pushing us away and I believe that you should bad mouth the ADMINs because they do do a hell of a job with this forum and are super helpful.

[98OldsIntrigue]

I don't normally put my input into threads that I have no idea what they are talking about as I am young just starting college and just like to enjoy my car and fix things as the break with the exception of a few performance parts here and there... How ever I do have to say the IMP558, Shaun (ADMIN FOR ONE) pyschomatt and numerous others here on the forum are EXTREMELY helpful people and know what they are talking about. Half the things on this forum don't really apply to me because I have a 2nd Gen Grand Prix GT (L36) Now shaun seems to get irritated that I keep throwing money at it to make it faster etc and I understand where he's coming from the money spent is not worth the gains and I fully agree but it makes me happy and it makes the car most importantly MINE. The people here are extremely helpful, knowledgeable, and most importantly nice and caring people to talk to. Like shaun said we aren't driving a Corvette or hell for that matter even a Camaro. It was a car designed to be sporty but not to be taken to the track every day. both my cousins drive high horsepower Camaros, My best friend drives a high horsepower Corvette and they to have been EXTREMELY helpful with yes thats a good thing to do or no your going in over you head after all they know me best. 

 

First we should respect our admins especially since they are VERY active on this forum and keep all the information up to date and are patient with us and make sure that we keep interest in cars that the rest of the world doesn't give a damn about. Now I've never been the one to step out and give my own opinion as I'm very kept to myself etc. Take a look at my forum in the Members ride section (Grandprix1's 2002 Grand Prix GT) and look at all the advice and help I've been given... We need any and all helpful and relevant information here as the interest in these cars is shrinking IMO. But what makes it worth owning and caring for these cars are when you take them to shows (if your into that) its the people that come up and are AMAZED at how well the car has been taken care of (maybe driven hard a lot but taken care of) and tell you how they used to have one and how it was just a good all around car the they wish they didn't get rid of. 

 

If you don't like our input and advice please go off to one of the numerous other Facebook or Internet forums and like shaun said you will quickly realize what you left behind. Im on GPF and I'm not active as I just don't like how people throw others away. 

 

Ive driven my car very hard lots of times. Im very addicted to how that car takes corners with very mild suspension upgrades (see my signature). Ive had no issues with uneven tire wear with the forces that I've put on the steering and suspension parts especially when I've autocrossed the car a few times. Now I cant speak for the first gens but for mine id say what ever the alignment it was given 4-5 years ago was pretty good. It was done when the PO put new tires on it at 25k miles. We bought the car with 28k and its now just shy of 50k. It has never given me an issue, scared me a few times yes other then that no. 

 

I don't have the knowledge and experience with these cars as most others do but I know enough about my car that I know (mostly) what I'm talking about or so I think. Now I'm sure ill be thrown all sorts of crap for putting my input in and id like to see how the rest of the members handle that cause like I said I just graduated high school and I'm about to start college (Financial Major). We've tried to help and give our input but your just pushing us away and I believe that you should bad mouth the ADMINs because they do do a hell of a job with this forum and are super helpful.

 

It's never any problem to take one thing at a time, so w/r/t what's in red, which summarizes (I think) pretty well the gist of that first paragraph: TO BEGIN WITH:  I was NOT the instigater w/ any personal attacks.

 

1) The people here are extremely helpful ... The first "help" I got was clearly in error - in certain MAJOR respects. I merely pointed that out.

Right from the go, and in no uncertian terms I was told that it was I (myself) that was ignorant of what I "should be paying attention to," or what I "Really ought to be concerned with." I think I can guess, you've probably played "dumb boy," or at least never openly contradicted or challenged the technical merits of what you're told? It's all "perfectly correct" information you got, and you never bothered to check or re-check the value in any of your (technical) instruction? Do you ASK "general questions" about multiple w-body cars at once? Or "just the specifics of the one-part-at-at-time type of thing?"

 

Anyhow, without straying too much ... As if? How can somebody that hasn't carefully read & understood the "original issue" have any idea about what my "real and legit" concerns ought to be?

 

I'm sorry if that ruffled any feathers, but it's the truth.

 

I'm not being mocking when a person "admittedly fuzzy about the question" gives a response that's "not at all to the point."

 

I'm just being frank.

 

Partly because the question wasn't written for somebody that REALLY ONLY WANTS to respond to "cut and dried" cookie-cutter-type questions and so perhaps he (pleasantly assuming "he" exists) should leave it to those (perhaps, depending, contingent) folks with more time & patience? He maybe ought to just leave well enough alone?

 

Yet, for SOME REASON, he didn't want to. And It creates communication problems (for any other readers) if he doesn't. It obscures (much further) what MIGHT be an excellent question (and surelya decent one when well posed.)

 

 

I CAN'T HELP IT IF SOMEBODY FEELS ALL HIGH AND MIGHTY THAT MY QUESTION ISN'T WORTH HIS/HER TIME. And judging by the ORIGINAL (somewhat snyde) response, he obviously didn't feel it was. Or his "help."

You really "help" a lot when you BACKSIDE somebody in the process Lol!

 

Bless with one hand, and stab with the other. Experience isn't so great when used as a tool - coupled with carelessness. ... Despite the fact the same individual "helping" has been seen to be clearly mistaken in some fundamental aspects of 2nd Gen front end alignment issue(s) - and I was again greeted rudely - even more rudely - another time for pointing THAT out, as well. Not the end of the world. No biggie. No end to rudeness on the Internet, perhaps. ... What immediate need arises if somebody says: "No, the advice you're offering is wrong and/or not to the point" EVEN IF "the point" (in HIS mind) isn't well established to start?

[What's in blue here is "an aside"]: Can the "expert" or technition or whatever not HANDLE a question that isn't perfectly well posed, and consequently feels the need to just post any old "random response" - even if the parameters of the question itself have not been clearly established [again, established from HIS perspective, as to him, the clear question doesn't yet exist] (in literature, scientific reasearch, or maybe even in the engineering journals  - in the United States)? ...

Day-before-yesterday I attempted (with dillegence) to find, via the library, and via the internet, some DIRECT REPORTS of "the measured experimental effects of toe, and camber, upon tire wear." But after almost an hour or so, the only papers (journal papers) I could find suggesting those measurements (i.e., results) were published in Chinese. Several papers to that effect, actually, but none in English. Doesn't mean they don't exist, and that there aren't hundreds of published papers along somewhat similar lines (but not directly to the point) in the USA. Anyhow, I searched some auto forums for about an hour again, and nowhere could I find any DIRECT INFORMATION about "the known data regarding toe alignment and tread wear." I (re)searched a lot of places before I ever brought the question here.

 

I made an effort, and haven't the slightest interest in "troubling" ANYONE. 

 

2) So, as soon as I remarked that the "help" wasn't really too helpful, in fact was confusing (or conflating if you like) the (somewhat complex - depending how you look at it) set(s) of so-called data, and suggested the "help" was probably not based in a clear understanding (of a fairly complex issue) --- I was greeted with the "personal garbage": something about my sexual behavior was alluded to, other things about my "style," or lack thereof, and insistence of "what I really need to be concerned with was XYZ"; and that's REALLY unnecesary.

 

ARE YOU UNAWARE OF ANY/ALL THAT?

 

It's entirely possible that of those you've dealt with, the nice and caring people sure as hell (both or three of them Lol!) didn't reply to me in that way. Oh well.

 

There MIGHT BE these wonderful, nice and caring people, ALL OVER THE PLACE, EVEN ON THIS FORUM, for sure, but the "threesome" (no pun) that showed their hand, so-to-speak, to me, when faced with something they didn't have the (or their?) normal (pat, wrote, automatic) cut-and-dried answer to, apparently believed it would be best to try to "prove me ignorant, or a poor communicator" RATHER THAN JUST SAY, "Heck, I REALLY DON'T KNOW."

-OR-

"I DON'T QUITE FOLLOW."

 

That's as plain as day, although two of these individuals seemed to think it best to attack ME rather than substantiate (one-way-or-other) the (fairly lengthy) ORGINAL RESPONSE TO ME, i.e., the one that suggested "Well, what you really ought to be worried about" post, of course. The same one post, when coupled with the second, started presenting some false claims (about "most w-body cars are subject to grinding holes") to everybody. And that's plainly irritating as hell when a "slightly off the beaten path question" is greeted by soliloquy, vagaries and misinterpretation. 

 

Still, IT'S NOT EARTH SHAKING.

 

You (yourself) might not ever get the crass and rudeness, if your questions are consistently naieve - or let's just say, "average garden variety," and don't pertain to the nuances of the possible consequences - great OR small (as yet undetermined Lol!) - of the intricacies - shall we say - "POSSIBLE necessities of extreme accuracy in wheel alignment to obtain TRUE optimal tire wear."

 

There's obviously some naivete on my part about whether a guy can TRULY handle (with ease) a DIY alignment and achieve "very close to optimal."

 

There is a LOT of discussion about that in the forums (and beings I've got family cars to attend to - THREE of them - since I'm the only one who wants to even consider being a grease monkey on weekends this month)

... and virtually nothing that I can find that is "verified" and/or "quantified" ... nobody (I can find) offers much of anything but anecdotal, well, just "stories" - and some intellegent guys out there claim their own DIY alignment (100 bucks in tools or whatnot) causes their car to handle really well (and practically zero "bad" tire wear) ... and so MAYBE they are onto something? 

 

That's about what I asked, and presented several facets of what "might or might not effect REALISTIC alignment precision" --- and furthermore, I'd suggested why "the w-body MIGHT be the first type vehicle to investigate the overall topic ... ONLY TO BE TOLD I WAS "ignorant"  ABOUT THAT ALSO! What a crock!

 

and boy-oh-boy did it become apparent real quick that if the question wasn't phrased the way the "expert in technical documents conceived it" then man, "was I an idiot?" and/or "here's a bunch of mumbo-jumbo that doesn't pertain to your question, but take-it-or-leave-it pal, cause that's the way it is around here!" bla bla  bla bla bla  bla bla

 

Need I elaborate? 

 

(Your) SECOND PARAGRAPH:

I don't really see much of anything heavily objectionable there. However, you might just consider this: your Shaun there seems in an awful big hurry to refer to me as "a dick" and/or "jackass." It's a piss poor form of moderation, arbitration, WHATEVER. Clear sign(s) of intemperance and/or lacking judgement. Still, Congradulations on your car. I'm glad somebody sees fit to assist you with it. Probably can't hurt much if anything if nobody steered you wrong so far. Good to know you're happy about it.

 

THIRD:

Hardly GOT any advice. The first piece was "You really ought to focus on something else, you're off base," and then "My advice to you, is you need get laid and get drunk..."

Pretty much ='s 1) F-u, and 2) F-yer car(s).

 

FOURTH: Fine & dandy, no biggie, if the tires wear well, is sure sign of not just good alignment but (at least) halfway decent struts and ball joints &tc &tc. But did you align it yourself? Most don't, won't, haven't and can't. That's ONE very CRUCIAL "question" I was suggesting, hinting at, relating "things" (i.e., "variables" - affecting precision) to. But that's often precision DEPENDANT of a LOT of different factors. I'd suggested several. Then, of course, mainly the question about wether DIY alignments tools can EVER give a really nice alignment. Some say "yes, for sure," and others say "no way." But very seldom (to my knowledge) if ever has anybody "discussed in detail any/all factors in determining if a DIY alignment (and there's several ways/tools to DIY that take an hour or two) can ever consistently yield an excellent alignment?" In particular, front wheel align on a w-body car, with new front suspension parts (excluding inner tie rod ends) since it's the BEST type of car to TRY the DIY alignment - perhaps?

Nor has much of anybody (anywhere - universities - facebook or google-land as far as I know) "quantified" the "bad" alignment (in terms of tire wear) AND made that information easily available to the public.

 

Apparently, if you ask that fairly decent set of questions right there, putting forth honestly what you do know, and what you don't know --- you better be prepared for some real nice and caring people suddenly - well - to get their panties in a bunch. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? I'm hoping against hope, praying to God, that even a nice, honest, reputable young man such as yourself can grasp that. The "deeper" point, I mean, insofar as, if "you ask a fairly novel (unusual) question, ESPECIALLY of a grease monkey, be prepared for the very first ones in line to "try to answer a question they really don't KNOW the answer to," and in so doing ... they want to blame YOU for even asking!

Bigger "problem" might be, most good science (what we might just call emperical fact - not "ultimate" truth but SURELY close enough!) - is based in statistical analysis of experimental data, for sake of argument good science or good engeneering  (sometimes) requires some RUDIMENTARY calculus, but not always, sometimes just requires basic (discrete) statistics, laws of averages, and is easy (even for mathematicians or physicists to loose track of sometimes - the Space Shuttle BLEW UP for cryin' out loud) - but once is determined that way "normal experience" often bears it out and a HIGHLY OBSERVANT alignment tech (with good basic algebra MAYBE required) could PROBABLY tell us "total toe of more than about 1.0 degree will wear out tires about TWICE as fast as tires that are total toe 0.1 (same as left toe 0.05 and right 0.05). He MIGHT also be able to say total toe 0.5 (left/right 0.25 degrees respectively) 1.5x's as fast as total toe 0.1 (same as left toe 0.05 and right 0.05) &tc &tc &tc ...

But NOBODY wants to come forward and say that, and I THINK it's because it's not well-studied (beings DIFFERENT tires WEAR at DIFFERENT rates - so the "studies" might only [truly/accurately] pertain to the BRAND/STYLE of tire under study). And sadly, even though that COULD be "generalized" by even the average ordinary person (who doesn't use "performance" or racing tires) BUT THE TIRE COMPANIES AND THE INDUSTRY IN GENERAL HAS NO INTEREST IN THOSE "TYPES" of studies and hence - nobody really does them. So we are LEFT with "anecdotal stories" about how good is good and how bad is bad when it comes to alignmets? Maybe? Jeezus christ I'm not IN the automotive field so I do NOT KNOW "all the research."

[Grandprix1]

Have you wondered why no one else is giving there input on the idea of load and alignment? First I think that the alignments should be left to the tech because it is a safety thing and if done wrong or improperly you could end up killing your self or anyone else. If your doing a driveway alignment I think the only thing you should be doing is a "rough" alignment. Before you start count the number of threads left on the tie rod and when you finish make sure there is that number of threads lefts. That way you have a decent enough alignment to get it into a shop to have it done by the tech. What are alignments going for these days? $100? Boom 3 cars $300 and much of a headache saved by the rest. Your $100 tool? That could have been one professional alignment. Theres somethings that people just shouldn't mess with on their cars themselves and this is one of them. Kinda like messing with the airbags...

[digitaloutsider]

I don't think there is going to be anything productive coming out of people continuing to engage with you here, and such, I am going to lock this thread. In the meantime, feel free to browse these other forums and maybe you'll find the answer you're looking for. Feel free to make identical posts over there.

 

http://www.grandprixforums.net/threads/40393-Understanding-Alignment-NOW-WITH-STOCK-ALIGNMENT-SPECS!

http://www.grandprixforums.net/threads/12958-Ahh-alignment-issues-what-is-wrong-here

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=4572919&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&language=&tmode=&smode=&s=#4572919

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=1917855&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&language=&tmode=&smode=&s=#1917855

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=5733153&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&language=&tmode=&smode=&s=#5733153

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Wbody.3800Gathering/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3800PERFORMANCE/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2207224160/

 

55trucker summed up as good of an answer as you're going to get very early in this thread: Are you driving around with 900 lbs of passenger in your car LITERALLY all the time? If so, go to an alignment shop and explain to them how your car is being used and figure out the best way to align it. Otherwise, the engineers at GM spent hundreds of thousands of man hours designing the suspension on your car. They designed it around a happy balance of flexibility and not having the suspension set in such a radical way that extreme tire wear would occur from too little or too much load. Unfortunately, given your last post, you believe this to be some sort of conspiracy theory in the tire industry or something. 

 

The suspension alignment specifications that a shop will set your car to are defined by GM for a car with serviceable steering and suspension components along with stock size wheels and tires. If all of that applies to you, get an alignment and move on with your life. Hundreds of thousands of second generation W-cars have been piloted hundreds of millions of miles down the road safely and economically using these very same alignment specs. 

 

 

TO BEGIN WITH:  I was NOT the instigater w/ any personal attacks.

 

As I pointed out in my previous post here, yes you were. I'd seriously think long and hard about why you're getting the response you are from people. No one here knows, to a mathematically sound, scientifically-reproducible amount, just how far an alignment has to be "off" (due to excess load or any other reason) in order to cause excess tire wear. And you're not likely to find one unless you want to call up GM and request to speak to one of their suspension engineers. 

 

My final piece of friendly advice for you is that you take all of your thoughts that you write down and instead itemize them into bullet points or something. You seem like a passionate and intelligent guy, but posts like this read like a completely unfiltered stream of consciousness that is incredibly, incredibly difficult to follow and understand. Contrary to your trollish assumption, most people here DON'T live on the Internet and DON'T have 20 minutes to try and decipher what it is you're trying to say. This is why you're getting the lack of engagement and information you're looking for. In addition, this is the Internet. If you can't handle someone joking around and telling you to have a drink or dial down the intensity a little bit, I suggest you seek out your information via other means.