Cheapo ball joints 98 GP GT

[98gpgt]

This set actually came with uninstalled grease fittings. I ordered 2 sets accidentally, and a good thing I did, as the one set didn't come with them and I would have assumed they were good to go. So am I actually supposed to drill into the shiney metal? What about a suitable sized nail or punch. All those ftagments from drilling give me the willies. And both sets are the "sealed" type, a round metal clip or skinny band keeps the boot well sealed.

[digitaloutsider]

Using the cheapest possible garbage on a critical suspension component like a ball joint personally gives me the willies. 

 

So even the ball joints that came with the grease fittings in the box didn't come drilled? Most cheap suspension components are non-greasable. Are you sure they didn't throw the grease zerks in there by accident?

[Schurkey]

If you don't have holes to screw the zerks into, they don't belong on that joint.

[98gpgt]

If you look on rock you'll see some are specifically specified as not coming with greese fiitings. One of those sets I ordered. And have yet to look at them side by side, but both are more or less identical I think. I don't want to assume there's enough greese already in there. I don't know. Wasn't going to dump buku dollars into a car I paid 300$ for. If it lasts and cheapo parts give out, by better ones. I'm not made of cash right now.

[98gpgt]

Okay like I said I got two sets. The better of the 2 came with grease fittings and happily holes to screw them into. It's my lucky day. But even with that issue resolved, there'as the issue of the supplied 3 bolts and nuts which don't have the luxury of cotter pins as the bolt opposite the ball does. I obtained a set for my old Lumina which had pressed in nylon bushings or whatever they were to keep the nuts from falling off due to vibration. Do I just snug these up and hope fornthe best?

[Imp558]

Those look like whizz nuts, so they are a locknut. Just to be safe it wouldn't be a bad idea to torque them to spec and then use your favorite center punch or chisel to ding the first thread on top of the nut. I like the center punch better but that's me.

[Imp558]

I like happily holes, btw.

[98gpgt]

Ok that I'll do. Being on the last balljoint I installed (my uber low maintenance 92 Lumina fantasy car), I dropped the bolts down, so even if the nuts came loose, well there would be something holding the assembly on, for a bit anyway. So I take it I'll be dinging under the nut. But anyway I looked at the enclosed invoice and saw that these things were under 16$ with the shipping. Everything is made in China these days. Am I actually risking life and limb by installing these??? They look pretty good to me, but as we all know looks aren't everything.

[Imp558]

You'll live.

[digitaloutsider]

I've personally seen ball joint failure on ultra-budget components in short order. 

 

When a single ACDelco or MOOG is $40 before shipping, and these are under $16 WITH shipping, you really need to ask yourself where they cheaped out on stuff. This company is able to shit out these parts in China, ship them over here, get them to a distributor and then the distributor is able to deliver them to your front door for under $16 and still make a profit.

 

I'm all for saving money, but after seeing so many bad components (wheel bearings, tie rod ends, ball joints, control arm bushings), there is no way I could in good faith recommend them.

[Imp558]

Where are AC and Moog ones made? Is this like our hub assemblies?

[digitaloutsider]

I've seen MOOG suspension/steering stuff made all over. Some of it has been Mexico, some of it has been the US, some South Korea, and some China.

[98gpgt]

In reality it's about quality control. A part made in China could be quality if manufacturing processes, materials etc. are monitored. I would expect Moog, Delco etc. to be exceptional Asian stuff. But who knows. The machine tools coming from the east often are very accurate, but just dom't last as long. Having said all the above I would like to here specifics on what failed and when. A lot of parts are sold on ebay and through rock. I want to know how often these cheaper components give out. I don't care nearly as much that they don't hold up for 5 years. Just that there isn't a catastrophic failure when.I least desire it.

[98gpgt]

And my Harbor Fright grinder takes 3 1/2" grinding wheels and no one sells them anymore. Now I may have to buy a new unit! This probably has a 3/8" arbor.

[digitaloutsider]

 Having said all the above I would like to here specifics on what failed and when. 

 

I have personally seen...

 

• Cheap wheel bearings (Advance Auto's "Driveworks" brand, these appear to be Mevotech) fail directly out of the box. Twice. Literally put the car on the ground, back it out of the garage, and it's grinding. I've also seen other cheap bearing brands fail within the first few thousand miles, especially eBay specials.
• AA/AZ/Pep Boys house brand control arms fail within a few thousand miles. I also presume this was a Mevotech part. On my Altima, the bushings completely wallowed out where it bolts to the subframe. It was so bad that under moderate acceleration, the car would dart into the other lane of traffic. Same failure on the same part for a Cadillac STS.
• AZ/AA/Pep Boys house brand tie rod ends fail on my Jeep within a year. It was so bad I could go under the Jeep, grab the tie rod and and shake it back and forth and get easily a half inch of play out of the joint. 
• NAPA house brand ball joints on my Thunderbird SC that would not tighten down no matter what I did. The stud just spun in the housing. No amount of compressing, impacting, cursing, etc would get it to torque down. Tore them off and replaced them with NOS TRW ball joints that worked the very first time.
• O'Reilly house brand clutch master cylinder on my Altima that would not bleed down correctly and caused engagement issues, even after wasting hours on it. Eventually started leaking within a few days. Replaced with Nissan OEM part made in Japan that bled down in 5 minutes and worked perfectly.

 

All of these parts have the same thing in common: Made by cut-rate Chinese manufacturers. If the ones you buy at a brick and mortar store are this bad, I can't imagine how awful $12 eBay parts are. These aren't just annoyances of having to replace a part multiple times, each and every one of these are safety issues, and I'm sure I'm forgetting plenty of other ones over the years. At this point I simply won't buy parts at retail, unless I'm absolutely fucked or I can buy a quality name (Timken, MOOG Problem Solver, SKF, etc) for around the same price as RA. And keep in mind, my list isn't even counting the tons of shitty electrical components I've gotten over the years.

 

I was actually able to buy a MOOG wheel bearing from Advance for cheaper than I could on RockAuto with a coupon code. Brakes work out like this a lot, too. 

 

With suspension/steering, do it once and do it right. A leaky water pump or a alternator that fails within a month is annoying. Suspension components completely separating and falling apart can be fatal.

[White93z34]

To expand on that. Its where you'll find a bunch of people saying "yeah man I been running $10 wheel bearings/balljoints/whatever for years no problem" Maybe so. 

 

My concern is the variable quality, maybe it will last the rest of the vehicles usable life, maybe not. I've seen a LOT of cheap components fail rapidly, I've also seen good parts fail in what I would consider too short a period of time... the latter happens far less often though. 

 

At the end of the day, its the Chinese lottery, maybe you win, maybe not. I've been on both sides of that coin.

 

My belief is that with a $16 balljoint the maker of it - whoever they may be is interested in money far more then making a quality part. It was made thousands of miles away, shipped, sold to a distributor, sold again, shipped again and someone STILL made a profit off it. How much give a shit went into making it in the first place?

 

I also simply do not have the time to do work a second time. Buy cheap, buy twice.

[98gpgt]

Yeah but as I said sort of, got more time then money these days, especially being this car only cost 300$. I have 600$+ in parts, not all installed yet. If they were all name brand that cost would easily be twice that. Now I have a fluid leak, I'm thinking ps but it was slimey like brake fluid? Just finished the bearing, rounded that nut some more. You have to yank/jerk on the breaket bar in situations like that. No gentle bentle easy peasy. Bammo. Ball joints are next that is unless I have major fluid leakage. Only seemed to happen when car was started while jacked up on one side.

[98OldsIntrigue]

I think Shaun's was an excellent post.

 

There's a million ways to look at things, but one guy made a post at YouTube I'll never forget; I remember almost verbatim, but paraphrasing:

 

"Most cars, you're basicly operating a 2 1/2 ton guided missle in the vicinity of 7 billion unsuspecting targets."

 

The guy went on to say something like, "Never mind your own safety, but is there any regard for others?"

 

I think (without the slightest hint of judgemental-ism beings dime a dozen for opinions) another (promise this is my last 2-cents) vantage might be: $300 car compared to $300,000 in hospital bills.

Or a $3K funeral.

It's sometimes the law of unintended consequences - I've a feeling that a Hwy Patrolman (or Dr./R.N.) who regularly sees mangled (human) body parts up-close-and-personal might have (another) opinion of "cheapo" front end components.

 

The little old lady, e.g., doing 55mph in a 70 might also create some problems ...

 

Last year, g/f borrowed my dad's car (while I was working on her Crysler front end of all things) ... anyhow she got out on the Hwy and had a tire go flat. Worse thing was, in a CONSTRUCTION zone, on a major interstate with three (very poorly) marked lanes. Since it was a construction zone, there really wasn't any shoulder (to speak of) and there were two more lanes merging from the right [for a total of five] and the speed limit was 55mph. She THOUGHT she was pulling over on the left shoulder - and after driving (maybe a 1/4 mile) came to a stop beings she didn't wan't to "damage someone else's rim." Lo and behold, behind her comes flying some jerk-wad, tail-gating somebody else in the left lane.

YOU GUESSED IT: the tail-gater (doing about 80 she thinks 'cause she watched it happen in the rear view!) couldn't

1) see properly the (dad's) "stalled car" ahead or

2) swerve FAST ENOUGH (out along with the leading car) to avoid my g/f

and so therefore plowed right into her rear end at 75mph+ ... and totaled a $10,000 car (my dad's) not to mention jerk-wad's own grey-primered-out old $500 POS.

 

She immediately phoned me, and the accident site was little more than a couple miles away, so I arrived with 2 minutes of the cops. The jerk-wad tail gater I didn't bother to speak to, but he had a REAL glum look on his face. It's a miracle nobody got hurt. And furthermore, the wad with the cheap-a$$ car was doing his little Mario Andretti routine merging from an Interchange. People have to realize that SOMETIMES people ease-off the accelerator a bit in order to merge. APPARENTLY HE DON'T LIKE THAT??

 

And so by logic, his field of view was restricted (driving a Camaro-looking-thing ... maybe a Fietsa or other sort of low-rider that normally CAN'T see through the windshield of most cars [those that ride higher-to-the-ground]). At least it's (very) fair to presume he couldn't see what was happening ahead. Why ELSE would he ass-end somebody on the freeway? Anyhow, the tail-gater got a ticket, and his insurance company paid my dad $9,500. I don't get too upset about it. Tail-gaters are A-holes - and little I can do would change that.

 

Now there's no way in hell I could know for absolute 100% certain "the actual chain of events," but what I do know is, that it's harder to AVOID an accident if something is "wrong" with the front end. So g/f and me easily "pieced together" what had happened - and there's really little - if any - discrepancy. The wad that rear-ended her had just completed (or was finishing attempting) a very-rapid "5-lane" lane-change. Again, she actually watched 99% of it happen in her rear view: "The guy came up on me like a bat out of hell - and so did the guy before that!" she'd remarked.

 

I've every reason to belive there were actually TWO road-rage-A-holes, jockeying for posistion, and only the FIRST (with a clear view of her stalled car ahead) got lucky and executed the "quick swerve" to avoid her. The second car wasn't so lucky, and he couldn't see smack (becuase of his tailgate behavior) anyhow. Point is, I'd bet they were BOTH zipping between lanes and the guy behind just happened to be the MOST AGRESSIVE (of the Idiot Twins). Matter of fact, I'd lay Vegas odds on it.

 

Most of us have SEEN it - MANY times. One A-hole riding the other A-hole. They LIKE IT that way. Birds of a feather flock together, and in this case they were BOTH really (really really) flying, and as I mentioned it to her, she said to me: "That jives EXACTLY with what I (could) see." Now soon-as-snot, one of those A-birds ain't flyin' so high.

 

The second A-bird? ... just a matter of time 'till his chicken comes home to roost. And it'll be one rotten egg. Cooked goose. Obituary.

 

It's just ONE scenario, but it takes practically zero imagination for (the experienced driver) to conceive of innumerable scenarios where a "car that handles well" (coupled of course with sensible/acute perception and well-reasoned driving habits) on slick/uneven pavement e.g. actually COULD (and DOES) save lives.

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Moral of the Story: Ankle-bone-connected-to-the-knee-bone.

If ball joints are bad, likely the LCA bushings are going-going-(gone?) along with upside strut bearings, not to mention the heavily-rotted rubber in the sawy bar linkages (and of course the old/crappy pneumatics themselves.)

 

Also I'd bet the outer tie rods need inspected.

 

 

Now I paid $351 (in parts) to re-do ALL OF THAT [strut assembly/(loaded) LCA/(outer) tie rods/sway bar links]

on my 98 Intrigue last month.

 

ALMOST went with "cheapo" parts ... but EVERYTHING was Moog (or Moog-quality) ... SURPRISED how "affordable" at RockAuto.

Now, YES, I had to cut loose (sawz-all or angle-gringer) the rusted ball joint retainer (AND sway links) i.e., the little 8mm allen wrench will NOT sustain the torque required to loosen the rusted ball joint fastener ... and without TWO floor jacks it would have been miserable. BTW, the (new) sway linkage is the LAST thing torqued/assembled and MUST be done under load (jack under ball joint and/or LCA). I almost forgot to put one (of the two) through-bolts into one of the a-arms in the process. That's a no-no. I think I needed a deep-well 13/16" - along with a regular 13/16" socket, and 3/4" and 7/8", 8,13,15,18,19mm end wrenches (wratcheting prefered on the bigger metric one) ... WAS able to loosen the rusted stud on the ball joint a little before I cut the bolt ... also used some sort of pickle fork I'd bet beings hammering the alluminum knuckle/spindle is another no-no. Oh yes, now I remember a PAIR of 15mm sockets was easiest (for me anyway) to torque the sway linkages. And a pair of roughly 20" bungee cords (one for brake caliper and one to "struggle with" the strut assembly in relation to the knuckle) - held "heavy stuff aside and from flopping." I also think I needed to use the giant 6" C-clamp (just a single turn) to get the pads back over the rotor. On my car I'm sure the hub/knuckle STAYS as an assembly as the giant 36mm axle nut stays put. Also, the ($10) OUTER tie rod was super-easy to replace once I figured the righty/tighty -OR- lefty/loosy in my brain --- IOW only NEEDED the outer replaced --- so just holding the inner by the flat spot and reverse-spinning the outer by grabbing the whole outer-stud with giant pliers was easy. If the cinch-bolt from inner/outer tie rod stays put, and the car was aligned, then another alignment is maybe "overkill." That's my present understanding when replacing (all) worn suspension parts.

 

The inner tie rods are hard to replace and seldom wear out is again my (present) understanding. Even my outers were showing minimal wear --- but I didn't want to risk 2.3-hrs shop-labor/per/side (strut assembly/LCA[loaded w/ ball joint]/sway link) and "save" 13 extra minutes for the (outer) tie rod - then have "steering wheel wobble" next year? I work kinda/sorta slow, so 1/2 day per side is about what it took (me).

 

"bad suspension parts" = "burning thru front tires" 2x's as fast?

 

Anything's possible. And six million Frenchmen couldn't possibly be wrong ...

only re-iterating the thing about the "Chinese lottery" ... strange but true ... I'm only a shade-tree weekend warrier. Could, I spse, be a case of the blind leading the blind; I don't know sheet from Shinola. But the front end of my nearly 20-yr-old Intrigue finally handles like a dream. Maybe I got lucky and knock on wood.

STILL don't believe everything I see in Reader's Digest.

[98gpgt]

not to be contentious but I just watched a video where a guy does ball joints on his 2000 GTP and his AC Delco box prominently says "made in China". Again there are variations in the quality of stuff coming from the orient, but for the money they charge . . . 

[digitaloutsider]

A lot of it is made in China now, unfortunately. I hope you didn't take what I said to mean that "everything made in China is shit", but I'm sure there is certainly a quality control difference in an Chinese AC Delco part and a Mevotech.

 

Back in the 1990s, McDonnell Douglas used to build a small amount of MD90 aircraft in Shanghai, China. Some of those planes are still in service today with Delta. But there is a big difference in quality control and engineering between what MDD built and what China's state-owned manufacturer, COMAC, builds. China doesn't always mean trash, but Made in China + ultra cheap almost always does.

[98gpgt]

"Now, YES, I had to cut loose (sawz-all or angle-gringer) the rusted ball joint retainer (AND sway links) i.e., the little 8mm allen wrench will NOT sustain the torque required to loosen the rusted ball joint fastener ..."

 

 

 

 

I have to ask a lot of questions becaiuse with some things once you vet into it you're committed and the vehicle is disabled. Once you grind away the nubs on the bottom of tne control arm, don't you need enough definition in the top (allen key) holes to take tbe bolts out? My bolts looked pretty rusty and at d

First glance didn't resemble holes tbat would take allen keys. Not sure if tbat's an option. But what would I do otherwise? I had to drive out the rivets from the bottom with a punch on my Lumina. I'm going out tbere momentarily to PB Blast everything I need to. But the job won't get started until Thutsday.

[White93z34]

I assume you are talking about grinding out the rivets on the lower control arm to change the balljoint?

 

I hate doing that myself, pain in the ass. I've had it where I've knocked the heads off but they are still too expanded in the holes to do anything and then had to drill them out, not on a w-body but same concept.

 

I can't 100% say for sure on a 2g w body since I've only just replaced the entire control arm rather then just the balljoint.