4T60E Filter, Gasket, Fluid choice

[95GS]

My 95 3800 runs with a 4T60E tranny according to wikipedia & comments I've read here.

 

The fluid's still red but the dipstick had some minor dark deposits at the top end when wiped w/ a rag...

So, as preventative maintenance, I'll change the fluid with a local mechanic.

The fluid has at least 75K miles on it, possibly much more.

 

I've ordered filter & gasket from the parts store. 

Didn't think to call the GM dealer for these - but should I use dealer parts here?

 

The dipstick states Use Dexron III, but on the phone the mechanic said Dexron 5 is preferable.

This is not a flush, only a filter change, so, new fluid will mix with old.

Is Dexron 5 the better choice?

 

How much fluid is usually required?

 

 

[jman093]

There is no such thing as Dexron 5. GM went from 3 to 6. GM does not sell Dexron 3 anymore. 6 is much a better fluid and replaces three as far as they are concerned. The cheap 3 stuff can still be bought aftermarket. Use 6. A factory metal-core rubber transmission pan gasket is going to be much less leak-prone than an aftermarket one.

[95GS]

Thanks Jesse. 

I'll compare with the dealer.

[RobertISaar]

if you were only going to run the fluid for a short amount of time, I would say to save a few dollars and use the Dex-III. for a longer-term fill(50K), use the dex-VI. at least that has a reasonable chance of being a lifetime fluid, unlike the dex-III it replaced.

[White93z34]

IF your transmission still has the factory rubber/metal gasket it can be reused no problem

[Nas Escobar]

if you were only going to run the fluid for a short amount of time, I would say to save a few dollars and use the Dex-III. for a longer-term fill(50K), use the dex-VI. at least that has a reasonable chance of being a lifetime fluid, unlike the dex-III it replaced.

 

I've used the aftermarket Dex/Merc on my Cutlass for 2 years with no issues. Actually, all I use is Dex/Merc. I don't trust thinner oils in older stuff. Last time I did that in a Mopar, the trans started messing up. That was switching from ATF3 to ATF4, so I'm a bit scarred in regards to the "newer, thinner, synthetic" stuff. I may switch to Dex 6 in a car I don't care about for the lolz

[Schurkey]

1.  There is NO point to re-using half of your crappy old fluid.  Get rid of it all, and fill with fresh.

2.  Dexron VI has come down in price (depending on where you buy it) but if that were my vehicle, it'd get refilled with the Dexron III substitute typically marked "Dex/Merc" or something similar.

[Psych0matt]

When I did the 06, I went with some max life high mileage fluid, and did a shift kit at the same time. I have 200k+ miles though, but everything is nice and tight

http://imgur.com/A2u6K7j

[mfewtrail]

IF your transmission still has the factory rubber/metal gasket it can be reused no problem

 

Definitely reuse it. A lot of people seem to ditch the perfectly good factory ones thinking they need to be changed. If for some reason GM no longer carries the gaskets, Fel-Pro and ATP should still make the same style reusable replacements. I seem to remember ATP being about half the price of the others last I checked.

 

 

Edit: For the Fel-Pro and ATP, your best bet is to order online. Most part stores will not carry them nor do they order them in. They're in the business of selling parts, so they often just stock the type that need to be replaced each time you pull the pan.

Edited January 20, 2017 by mfewtrail

[RobertISaar]

I've used the aftermarket Dex/Merc on my Cutlass for 2 years with no issues. Actually, all I use is Dex/Merc. I don't trust thinner oils in older stuff. Last time I did that in a Mopar, the trans started messing up. That was switching from ATF3 to ATF4, so I'm a bit scarred in regards to the "newer, thinner, synthetic" stuff. I may switch to Dex 6 in a car I don't care about for the lolz

 

then you may want to change out your fluid often.... one of the big selling points about dex-6 was how much more resistant it was to shearing down compared to dex-3.

 

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1228387

 

running 30K intervals with a 4T65, M1 dex-3(which is a full synthetic) sheared down to 5.72cst from a starting point of 7.5. dex-6 starts at 6.4. assuming a linear shear rate(which isn't realistic, most shearing is done almost immediately), you would have to change fluid within 17,000 miles just to stay above dex-6 initial viscosity.

 

if dex-vi sheer stability improved the  200% GM claims, then the same 30K interval should drop it from a 6.4 to 5.8. that is parity with a dex-iii fluid, and will only look better from that point.

[95GS]

IF your transmission still has the factory rubber/metal gasket it can be reused no problem

 

Right - I hadn't thought of that. I made the same mistake buying a new oil pan gasket.

[95GS]

Definitely reuse it. A lot of people seem to ditch the perfectly good factory ones thinking they need to be changed. If for some reason GM no longer carries the gaskets, Fel-Pro and ATP should still make the same style reusable replacements. I seem to remember ATP being about half the price of the others last I checked.

 

 

Edit: For the Fel-Pro and ATP, your best bet is to order online. Most part stores will not carry them nor do they order them in. They're in the business of selling parts, so they often just stock the type that need to be replaced each time you pull the pan.

 

You're right - parts stores don't carry the metal/rubber type, and dealer is expensive.

Thanks, I'll keep that online option in mind.

My car was usually dealer serviced before I bought it, so may have a GM gasket in place. 

[95GS]

1.  There is NO point to re-using half of your crappy old fluid.  Get rid of it all, and fill with fresh.

2.  Dexron VI has come down in price (depending on where you buy it) but if that were my vehicle, it'd get refilled with the Dexron III substitute typically marked "Dex/Merc" or something similar.

 

Schurkey, I don't get your drift here. 

1. I have no desire to keep any old fluid,

but a standard pan drop & filter change is only a 4 qt. change according to Haynes.

Since flushing is verbotten, how does one 'get rid of it all'?

 

2. Why would you use Dex/Merc? Posssibly because the car is old and the fluid cheaper?

 

I bought two jugs of Mobil Dexron-VI ATF - (10 litres total). Yes it's expensive, but less than a breakdown/tranny job/new car.

 

3. What is the total capacity of the transaxle?

 

I thought of draining the fluid, refill, then drive a few miles, repeat the drain & refill, with change of filter.

This would increase the concentration of Dex-VI, though wasteful.

Thoughts?

[Schurkey]

Schurkey, I don't get your drift here. 

1. I have no desire to keep any old fluid,

but a standard pan drop & filter change is only a 4 qt. change according to Haynes.

Since flushing is verbotten, how does one 'get rid of it all'?

The mistake in logic is thinking that a flush is forbidden.  I always flush, but I D-I-Y without the use a fancy "fluid exchange" machine.

 

I change all the fluid by performing the normal pan-drop, so there's a new filter and the pan is cleaned.  Also allows me to visually inspect the debris in the pan for metal.  On MY vehicles, I install a drain plug into the pan.  Not required, but kinda nice.

 

Then add ~5 quarts fresh fluid to the pan, remove the return-back-to-the-transmission tube from the trans cooler.  Install temporary tube into the trans cooler, leading to a five-gallon bucket.  Research fluid capacity for your vehicle.  Get 5-to-8 quarts of fluid ready to pour.  Start engine, dump fluid down the dipstick tube until you see bright red, fresh fluid come out the temporary cooler tube.  Shut off engine.  Reconnect original cooler tube.  Start engine, hit all the gears, adjust fluid level as needed.  It's nice if you can coerce someone to help you with the starting and shutting-off, so you can spend your time under the hood dumping fluid and watching the condition of the fluid spraying into the bucket--but I've done this as a "one-man-show" a few times.

 

You've just flushed the transmission and trans cooler.  Have a beer.  Done.

 

I have no problem with Dex/Merc fluid on any vehicle old enough to be spec'ed for Dex III or older fluid.  I have cases of it piled on the shelf in the garage--nothing I own is new enough to use Dex VI.  Yes, I object to expensive fluid when inexpensive fluid does the same job.  The car is not "grateful" that you bought expensive fluid.  It won't choose to not break down because you spent extra money on it.

 

Total capacity of the transaxle may be listed in the owner's manual.  It will certainly be in the service manual you should buy.

[RobertISaar]

12ish quarts total sounds about right, though with some fluid mixing, another quart or two to get all of  the old fluid out isn't a bad plan.

[vipmiller803]

Then add ~5 quarts fresh fluid to the pan, remove the return-back-to-the-transmission tube from the trans cooler.  Install temporary tube into the trans cooler, leading to a five-gallon bucket.  Research fluid capacity for your vehicle.  Get 5-to-8 quarts of fluid ready to pour.  Start engine, dump fluid down the dipstick tube until you see bright red, fresh fluid come out the temporary cooler tube.  Shut off engine.  Reconnect original cooler tube.  Start engine, hit all the gears, adjust fluid level as needed.  It's nice if you can coerce someone to help you with the starting and shutting-off, so you can spend your time under the hood dumping fluid and watching the condition of the fluid spraying into the bucket--but I've done this as a "one-man-show" a few times.

I have done this exact procedure before. Indeed, it is much easier with a compliant assistant. I did find that my gravity fill/funnel does not refill nearly as fast as the tranny pumps, so be mindful of running it dry for too long. The pump will make minor but audible noises when it starts cavitating. Too much of that and the foam will be overwhelming so shut it off asap. In all reality, the time it takes for that to happen is right about the same as when the fluid is all fresh, assuming you were refilling the whole time. Probably the best way to fully service a healthy trans. Be sure to do this first run after the pan dump. Otherwise you are just mixing oils all day with no clear cut end.

[Imp558]

I did something like this on accident over Christmas. A cooler line popped off and I left a long trail until the tranny was dry. At least I have new fluid now but it was only a year old.

 

 

This is quite possibly my favorite Schurkey quote:

 

The car is not "grateful" that you bought expensive fluid.  It won't choose to not break down because you spent extra money on it.

[Schurkey]

This is quite possibly my favorite Schurkey quote:

That comes from years of dealing with...idiots...who, when told that "X" broke and would have to be repaired before the vehicle was safe to drive, would whine and snivel about how "they just did an oil change and tire rotation, AND NOW, THIS!"

 

Their tone and inflection was exactly as if they were saying "I just fed the dog, and then he crapped on the carpet!"  As if the dog should be grateful for the food, and not crap on the floor in disrespect.

 

You install a new muffler, the worn-out ball joints should be so happy that they should last an extra two years...right?

 

Well, anyway, I'm here all week.   Don't forget to tip your waitresses, and as ever, [Elvis Voice]Thankyew, thankyew verra much![/Elvis Voice]

[rich_e777]

 compliant assistant.

What are these and where can i buy a pack of them?

[Galaxie500XL]

What are these and where can i buy a pack of them?

I had to marry mine...

 

Your mileage, though, may vary.

[95GS]

The mistake in logic is thinking that a flush is forbidden.  I always flush, but I D-I-Y without the use a fancy "fluid exchange" machine.

 

I change all the fluid by performing the normal pan-drop, so there's a new filter and the pan is cleaned.  Also allows me to visually inspect the debris in the pan for metal.  On MY vehicles, I install a drain plug into the pan.  Not required, but kinda nice.

 

Then add ~5 quarts fresh fluid to the pan, remove the return-back-to-the-transmission tube from the trans cooler.  Install temporary tube into the trans cooler, leading to a five-gallon bucket.  Research fluid capacity for your vehicle.  Get 5-to-8 quarts of fluid ready to pour.  Start engine, dump fluid down the dipstick tube until you see bright red, fresh fluid come out the temporary cooler tube.  Shut off engine.  Reconnect original cooler tube.  Start engine, hit all the gears, adjust fluid level as needed.  It's nice if you can coerce someone to help you with the starting and shutting-off, so you can spend your time under the hood dumping fluid and watching the condition of the fluid spraying into the bucket--but I've done this as a "one-man-show" a few times.

 

You've just flushed the transmission and trans cooler.  Have a beer.  Done.

 

I have no problem with Dex/Merc fluid on any vehicle old enough to be spec'ed for Dex III or older fluid.  I have cases of it piled on the shelf in the garage--nothing I own is new enough to use Dex VI.  Yes, I object to expensive fluid when inexpensive fluid does the same job.  The car is not "grateful" that you bought expensive fluid.  It won't choose to not break down because you spent extra money on it.

 

Total capacity of the transaxle may be listed in the owner's manual.  It will certainly be in the service manual you should buy.

 

Schurkey, makes complete sense, thanks for posting.

Did the fluid change today with a local mechanic, before I read your piece. 

...Was not going to do it on my back in the blowing snow...but next time your flush will be my choice.

Kept the OEM gasket, changed filter, cleaned pan and magnet with brake cleaner.

The old fluid was still red, but there was fine black powder in suspension stuck around the filter and a tiny amount in the pan.

Mechanic, who regularly rebuilds auto trannies, says all looked good, the black powder was Kevlar belt wear, normal.

Poured in about 7 litres of Dex VI. The car is so happy!! May never need new tires!!

 

[95GS]

P.S. Thanks for all input, and yes I should get a FSM.

Gave away my last one, for a 1986 Chevette.

[tinkering]

I know this thread is 5 years old but I'm very glad I found it. My 1993 Pontiac TransSport is nearly 30 years old and this thread still addresses the same 4T60E transaxle I have bolted to the 3.8L engine. 

 

I like to undo the return line from the cooler and put a length of clear hose from that fitting into a pail. Run the engine just until air begins to exit the clear hose (you will hear and see the change when air starts to come out) then shut the engine down. Then remove the pan to dump whats left in it, change the filter, and re-install the pan. Fill the transaxle through the dipstick tube, with the fluid of your choice. Then do the fluid exchange the way Schurkey describes. This way there will be a lot less old fluid to expel before it flows bright red. I like to put an inline magnetic filter in that same line, or better yet (I think) in the line 'to' the cooler (why not catch the crud before it gets caught up in the cooler?) 

I have a question here. I don't know if this would be possible or not... Would the cooler return line to the transaxle draw fresh fluid in if a guy was to drop it into a pail of fresh fluid? The clear hose would still expel the old fluid into one pail while the return line draws fresh fluid from another pail? I hope I worded that correctly. What do you think? Would the transaxle pump draw fresh fluid from the 2nd pail? 

 

Schurkey's 'flush' is recommended because it is not a 'reverse flush'. The power flush machines reverse flush (I think) which causes all kinds of settled and trapped crud to get freed up, and into the system again where is can lodge in pop valves etc.. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong here. 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by tinkering

[Schurkey]

The "cooled" fluid going back into the transmission is what lubricates the geartrain.  There's no pump to pull that fluid in.  So, no, you're not going to draw fluid up the cooler tube into the transmission.  That's why you're pouring fluid down the dipstick tube.

An inline filter before the trans cooler is a reasonable idea.  I have not done that; although I've bought the filters.  Got too lazy to actually install them.  They're the same as "power steering filters"; and they're a reasonable idea, too.  Buy them based on the inlet and outlet fitting sizes--typically 5/16 or 3/8 barbed fittings so that rubber hose clamps onto them.  Some filters come with hose sections and clamps, others don't.  Verify your trans cooler tubing size, or PS return hose size before ordering the filter.

 

A small, but significant change to my stated procedure:  After the vehicle has been jacked-up and properly supported, begin by dropping the cooler tube.   Add "temporary" tube so the fluid is directed from the cooler into a drainpan.  Start engine, run engine until fluid "sputters" into drainpan.  At the point where the pump is beginning to suck air instead of fluid--so the fluid sputters into the drain pan instead of a steady stream--the trans pan is nearly empty.  Shut off engine, drop and clean pan as described previously.  Saves a lot of mess compared to dropping the pan full of fluid.  Also saves needing a transmission pan drainplug, which I now omit.  The drainplug is just another leak-point if you use the cooler tube and running engine to empty the pan.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Schurkey