3800 water pump

[95GS]

Had a lower rad hose leak (broken clip) so taking this opportunity to change hose and home flush the system since I had read here the problems of mixed green & orange coolants.

 

There's a fair bit of corrosion on the water pump exterior.

When spun by hand it makes a kind of rattle noise in the clockwise direction,

smooth & silent when spun anticlockwise.

(Have not looked at the weep hole w/ mirror (Haynes recommendation), will do so in the morning.)

 

Are these signs the water pump needs changing?

Does the pulley need to be removed first?

Any other things to look out for?

 

Elsewhere Schurkey mentioned engine block drain holes - what do they look like?

[Nas Escobar]

Loose pulley would probably get a new pump in my book. I'm not a big fan of anything loose. 

 

That corrosion could be from the elements, but if the seal was going bad, you would see the pump wet at its surroundings. 

 

If you were to change the pump, it would be easier to remove the pulley with the belt still on it opposed to off the car, HOWEVER you don't need to necessarily remove it to get the pump off. You will be using the old pulley on the new pump so long story short, take it off before working on the pump itself. 

[95GS]

Loose pulley would probably get a new pump in my book. I'm not a big fan of anything loose. 

 

That corrosion could be from the elements, but if the seal was going bad, you would see the pump wet at its surroundings. 

 

If you were to change the pump, it would be easier to remove the pulley with the belt still on it opposed to off the car, HOWEVER you don't need to necessarily remove it to get the pump off. You will be using the old pulley on the new pump so long story short, take it off before working on the pump itself. 

 

Thanks Nas. I'm in agreement about loose things. Don't think it's loose, just a little rough turning clockwise, smooth going anticlockwise.

I ordered one along with a new hose. The initial draw was a slow coolant leak which was coming from the lower hose, because the clamp had broken.

Although broken in two, it still clung tight to the hose, embedded so to speak. 

 

Yes, could be environmental corrosion, no sign of moisture. 

 

Leaving the belt on to remove the pulley - Good tip! 

 

Is there a preferred type of clamp for rad hoses?  A regular stainless hose clamp? The OEM type is tough to deal with in tight spaces.

[Schurkey]

Any roughness to the pump is cause for removal and inspection, likely replacement.  I admit I'm curious what could be bad that it's only rough one direction.

 

The OEM clamps--which I used to despise--are in fact wonderfully engineered; especially the newest versions that are self-locking when squeezed-open with pliers.  Then, when you're ready to clamp the hose, just position the clamp and tap the locking mechanism, and POW! they spring shut and tight.  Couldn't be better.

 

OTOH, the worst clamps I see are the ones I used to favor--the cheap "Breeze" clamps with the worm gear and a bazillion slots in the band.  The rubber of the hose extrudes (cold-flows) through the slots.  At least use a SHIELDED clamp, so that the rubber doesn't squeeze out through the slots.  Yes, they cost more.

 

[95GS]

Schurkey, thanks for addressing the clamp issue, & photo.

 

I agree with your assessment of the Breeze (Jubilee) clamps, they cut into hoses. Bad.

OTOH, they're very convenient, slotted, hex, sometimes thumbscrew, and the wide ones cut less and offer good surface area.

And often available all stainless.

 

The other ones you labeled Shielded, that's what I was gunning for.

I used them on the power steering cooler lines down by the transmission pan,

with reservation...because they were zinc plated like the ones in your photo. Now they're rusting and need replacement.

 

So, do they commonly exist as a stainless item?

Retired mechanic at the parts store says he gets clamps (not Breeze) from a swimming pool store. 

 

There's another type like your Shielded variety with the screw shaft pointing to the hose center. Takes up more space.

 

Haven't seen the self-locking clamps you describe, that would definitely facilitate their use.

[95GS]

Coolant fill question

 

The water pump is postponed for a few days.

Doing a several day driving flush with a Prestone product.

Drained block & rad.

Removed thermostat, pushed out excess coolant with a shop vac at thermostat opening.

 

Filled rad, filled block at thermostat opening, squeezed lower hose a bunch, installed thermostat.

 

Ran 5 minutes (ambient 30F), no spitting from relief valve.

 

Remove thermostat, add more fluid.

Run 10 minutes, some spitting at relief valve, then no fluid coming out.

 

Upper hose cold. Worried no coolant in upper engine.

 

What have I missed...

[Imp558]

there's a bleeder valve on the thermostat housing. Fill the cooling system open the bleeder valve and what I usually do is squeeze the upper radiator hose a little bit to get the air out. More often than not I'm at work where there's a big ramp so I just pulled his vehicle and so the radiator is the high point

[Schurkey]

How much below the high-point of the cooling system is the radiator cap?

 

I would be filling the radiator using a tall, sealed funnel.  Fill the radiator so that the funnel is about half-full.  Open bleeder valves as required with engine at fast idle.  When the thermostat opens, the fluid level in the funnel will drop--and surge, and spit-back.  Add liquid as needed to keep some coolant in the bottom of the funnel.  As the engine warms up, the level in the funnel will raise.   Then the fans come on, and the level drops a bit.  When it's all reasonably stable, and there's no more air at the bleeder screw(s), use a fluid suction device to empty, and then remove the funnel, and put the rad cap back on.  Then you can shut off the engine.

 

Don't forget to remove the overflow bottle, fill it 1/3 full of sand and then add 1/3 of HOT water and some detergent.  Shake the shit out of it.  The sand scrubs the inside of the plastic, and then dump the whole filthy mess.  Rinse several times with HOT water, and reinstall.  Fill the overflow bottle as needed with your mix of water and antifreeze.  Test the rad cap to assure it holds pressure.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-24680-Spill-Free-Funnel/dp/B00A6AS6LY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480055061&sr=8-1&keywords=Lisle+coolant+funnel

 

[Schurkey]

Well, on second thought, you're using a Prestone product to clean the cooling system, therefore you're planning to flush the coolant.

 

I use a flush kit like this.  They can be had locally, or from Amazon just like the funnel.   Amazon shows $9 now, the last ones I bought were $4.  'Course, I haven't bought one for three years.  Install the nozzle into the rad cap flange, install the appropriate-size Tee into a heater hose (return hose preferred, but I'll take what I can get.)  Connect garden hose to Tee, turn the water on "full blast".  Start engine, work the throttle for both high and low RPM while watching the nozzle.  When there's no trace of coolant coming out...you're done.  Leave the Tee in place with the cap to seal it.  Remove the rest.  Ideally you'll have the block drains pulled, too--but if not while flushing, then afterwards (If the engine has block drains.)

 

https://www.amazon.com/Prestone-AF-KIT-Flush-Fill-Kit/dp/B000CCFY5W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480056082&sr=8-1&keywords=Prestone+flush+and+fill

 

 

 

 

BEWARE:  Unless you've pulled BOTH block drains, you DID NOT empty the block.  The block drain plugs--IF THE ENGINE HAS ANY (some Buicks did not) are likely to be either steel pipe plugs, typically with a 3/8 hex head, or a steel plug and a knock sensor.  GM often but not always crammed a knock sensor into the block drain hole on one side.  I have a habit of replacing steel plugs with brass from any home improvement store--plain ol' 1/4" pipe plugs except for Pontiacs which tend to use 1/8" pipe plugs.  Yes, there's a really good chance that you'll pull the plugs out and NO COOLANT WILL COME OUT.  Jam a Phillips screwdriver into the hole to break-through a crust of rust and scum, garf and garfelderfarb, and then the water pours out.

 

If you flush the system, and you don't pull (or have) block drains, you will have some amount of pure (tap) water in the water jacket of the block.  Look at your owner's manual for cooling system capacity, figure out how much is 1/2 the capacity, and you'll know how much anti-freeze to use.  Be sure to put the PURE anti-freeze in first, so you're sure to get all the freeze/boil/corrosion protection you think you have.  I mix DISTILLED water into the antifreeze AFTER the appropriate amount of anti-freeze is in the engine/radiator/hoses/overflow bottle.  This means--if you're lucky--that fancy funnel I had you buy in the previous post will have only water in it--aside from whatever amount of coolant spits-back as the air works its way out of the cooling system.

[Nas Escobar]

GS, you missed that when you fill the radiator and have it running, the heater has to be turned on. You need to get the full system circulating otherwise you won't have the system at its proper capacity

[Schurkey]

GS, you missed that when you fill the radiator and have it running, the heater has to be turned on. You need to get the full system circulating otherwise you won't have the system at its proper capacity

Is there a shut-off valve for the heater?  I'm fairly certain that my Luminas are full-time heater core, with air doors to control cabin temperature.

[Imp558]

I never have done any of that, I either fill it on a grade where the radiator is the high point and burp the air out or use the bleeder to get the air out and put a little extra in the overflow either way. I only flush if changing coolant types. The 3800 block will drain out the knock sensor ports if you choose to go that far. And everyone should own the little tool that costs $4 to test the antifreeze to make sure it's protected to an appropriate freezing temp for your area after it's run a Little bit and mixed whatever water you didn't get drained mixed in. Everyone has different criteria.

[rich_e777]

Sand works as a good abrasive but one can also use the tiny gravel found on the side of the road, but your going to have to clean it off with water before using it in the overflow tank. Get a few handfuls of it in a bucket and keep filling it with water, swishing it around to swirl all the dirt up the pour the water out and repeat til it runs clear. Very similar to the way one pans for gold.

 

Another note, when I changed the water pump on my 3100 the impeller was off a different cheap design(Duralast) and IMHO I don't think it pushes as much as the original pump. So I`d recommend an original AC delco pump vs any part store brand.

 

I didn't think of using the swimming pool clamps, some are supposed to be coated to protect against chlorine corrosion so that should hold up good to anything a engine can throw at it.

[95GS]

Great advice - thanks - so many early risers  .

I've been doing some of these things - inclined vehicle, heater on, using bleeder valve, fluid feed at the rad. 

 

My main concern was that the top of the engine was dry, because despite careful filling, the bleeder valve only sputtered initially then ran dry (no fluid) 

I probably didn't run it long enough to open the thermostat, certainly no fan cooling.

I just need to run it longer.

 

 

So thanks for confirming I've not missed some critical step and overheated something.

On reflection, in theory this shouldn't happen too easily since the heads are below the thermostat.

I'll leave this flush solution in for the next 100 miles or so.

[95GS]

Connect garden hose to Tee, turn the water on "full blast".  Start engine, work the throttle for both high and low RPM while watching the nozzle.  When there's no trace of coolant coming out...you're done. 

 

So is there any danger to the block with (almost) ice cold water running around those heating cylinder walls & heads?

 

(I know one starts this process with a cold engine, but even then..?)

 

Should the thermostat be changed, although it is working & 4 yrs. old?

[Schurkey]

So is there any danger to the block with (almost) ice cold water running around those heating cylinder walls & heads?

 

(I know one starts this process with a cold engine, but even then..?)

None.

 

You can change the thermostat if you feel the need.  I probably wouldn't.

[95GS]

Thanks.  

[95GS]

 

Another note, when I changed the water pump on my 3100 the impeller was off a different cheap design(Duralast) and IMHO I don't think it pushes as much as the original pump. So I`d recommend an original AC delco pump vs any part store brand.

 

You may have a point there Rich - Does anyone have a pic of an AC Delco pump interior?

[95GS]

Water pump bolt torque

 

Haynes says:-

short bolts: 132 in. lbs, step two - additional 80 degrees

long bolts: 22 ft. lbs.

 

Could someone confirm this for me?

[Imp558]

Here's Alldata, I'm sending another pic up in a minute

 

[Imp558]

[95GS]

Terrific - thank you!

[95GS]

For the record, old water pump & new.

Looks nice and shiny, nifty metal gasket.

Made by Gates...in China..

 

 

Unfortunately, the impellers are quite different..

 

The Gates pump was $63 CDN from Auto Value.

The GM model is $275 CDN, (~$200 USD) but haven't seen it.

How do these pump impellers compare with your experience? 

 

 

 

 

[Imp558]

Wow, what a difference in impellers. Makes me wonder how hard it would be to put a new bearing and seal in it.

[95GS]

Wow, what a difference in impellers. Makes me wonder how hard it would be to put a new bearing and seal in it.

 

Yes, I thought along those same lines. 

 

It's installed now, but I doubt it will move fluid like the old one.

If I'd had luxury of time and some forethought, I might have shopped around for another model

or for a machinist who would know how to switch impellers without wrecking the bearing & seal.

 

The shaft seems to be the same diameter.

A Cuban taxi driver would know what to do.

 

The old pump (made in Japan) was likely installed at a GM dealer, habit of the previous owner.