Rear alignment questions

[W30olds]

I had the rear shocks and monoleaf spring changed out last week. Mechanic told me it needed to have an alignment. No biggie. I have a 12 month alignment warranty from when I bought my tires at Kauffman. Took it to the tire shop this past Saturday. Told them I needed the rear end aligned. The passenger side wheel had to much positive camber they told me. Long story short they tell me it cannot be done. I researched and discovered that to be somewhat false. The toe can be adjusted, but the camber was not on the newer style GP. So I discovered camber bolt kits which will allow the adjustment's to be made for the rear camber. QUESTION: Any of you guys ever had to do this? Apparently when you raise up or lower the car it changes the alignment and suspension characteristics. I understand this, so just wanted to ask if anyone has had to use these camber kits. Moog makes one and can be used on these cars. Can be bought at the local parts store. Thanks

[Imp558]

Slot the strut holes where they bolt to the spindle?

[l67ss]

Either slot struts or if just a ° or so you can use camber shims

[W30olds]

I don't know how many degrees it's off. I installed the camber bolt kit a fee minutes ago. Will see what happens. If it's at least somewhat straight then I'll be happy. Will have the tire dudes check it again and see if they can get it within specs now. Thanks for the help

[W30olds]

OK so the bolts didn't do to much. Of course I'm trying to do it in the garage and I'm not an alignment tech. So I have not the slightest idea of how to get it anywhere near specs. Still has way to much positive camber. Looks like a farming tractor at this point. Still looks terrible and out of alignment. Frustrating.

[l67ss]

Do you have an angle gauge?

[W30olds]

I do not l67ss

[Schurkey]

GM and others eliminated alignment adjustment as their processes (supposedly) got good enough that the body structure and suspension/steering stampings and castings were all accurate enough that the vehicle "could not" be built with the suspension out-of-alignment.

 

Yeah, right.

 

There's also the effect on alignment of body sag over time, and collision damage.

 

"I" would start by looking for hidden damage--bent arms, damaged mounting-points.  Then I'd measure ride-height and compare to spec.

 

The camber kit should have put you in a good place with regard to camber adjustment.  The fact that it didn't is cause for concern.

[W30olds]

GM and others eliminated alignment adjustment as their processes (supposedly) got good enough that the body structure and suspension/steering stampings and castings were all accurate enough that the vehicle "could not" be built with the suspension out-of-alignment.

 

Yeah, right.

 

There's also the effect on alignment of body sag over time, and collision damage.

 

"I" would start by looking for hidden damage--bent arms, damaged mounting-points. Then I'd measure ride-height and compare to spec.

 

The camber kit should have put you in a good place with regard to camber adjustment. The fact that it didn't is cause for concern.

I've noticed as I've been driving the car more since the repairs that maybe the rear end has began to settle down some? The shocks have began to settle down as well. The camber kit seemed to have helped as I looked at it today in the daylight. When I looked at it yesterday it was in the dark and I was aggrivated as well. I for the life of me have no idea what GM was thinking by not allowing some adjustments to these rear ends. Guess they figured none of these cars would still be on the road some 15-20 years later; therefore no need for rear alignment adjustments. I know the car has no damage other than a slightly bent lateral link. The alignment tech pointed that out and said otherwise the rear looked fine and there were no adjustment that could be made to the factory setup rear suspension.

 

Hopefully as I drive the car more the back will all settle into alignment like it was before the swap. Fingers crossed anyway. Thanks for the info!

[95GS]

 The alignment tech pointed that out and said otherwise the rear looked fine and there were no adjustment that could be made to the factory setup rear suspension.

 

Ok -  I'm a little confused. On my 95 Regal, the cross member has round holes for the front lateral links,

but slots for the rear links - those must be for adjustment.

If you've got a leaf spring, your setup must be the same, 1st gen, etc.

[W30olds]

Ok - I'm a little confused. On my 95 Regal, the cross member has holes for the front lateral links,

but slots for the rear links - those must be for adjustment.

If you've got a leaf spring, your setup must be the same, 1st gen, etc.

Me too! According to the tech the toe is adjustable however the camber is not. At least that's what he explained to me. I'm still learning what toe, camber, positive, negative etc all mean. Camber is vertical wheel adjustments. The toe is the horizontal adjustments if you will. Can not really explain it. I had to read up on it from the Internet.

[W30olds]

I did notice last night that on the shock the lower holes are slotted. I'm assuming that is to adjust the camber on the rear? So I was reading to only use the camber bolts in the top holes and slot the bottom shock holes. I believe the idiots at Kauffman tire have no idea what the hell they're talking about. I'm going to take it to the tire store near work and get another opinion. They're the guys who told me about the cam bolts, so they seem to be a bit more educated. I believe there is plenty of room to adjust the camber. Just need to find a tech who knows what the hell to do.

[95GS]

 

Let us know...

[W30olds]

I will. Still a bit unsure myself 🤔

[jman093]

Just read this. Unsure if this will make sense, but I know exactly what's going on. What happened is that most replacement shocks have holes that are bigger than the bolts themselves. With the suspension unloaded (lifted off the ground) the top wants to come out (positive camber). The shocks bolts were installed with the suspension in this state and with room to play because of the holes larger than the bolts, the top of the wheel is now sticking out. You could loosen the nuts on those two shock bolts with the car sitting on the ground and with a thunk the tire will probably negative camber in a lot. Maybe even way too much. Or with those bolts loose and the wheel jacked off the ground, you'll find you probably can grab the wheel at 12 and 6 o'clock positions in your hands and camber it in and out.

 

Since this is not a proper specified adjustment, it can be a pain to get it aligned just right when one stop point is too far positive and the other is too far negative. It involves jacking the car up on the alignment rack, loosening those two bolts and moving the knuckle and shock to a position somewhere in the middle that yields the proper camber spec, tightening them and rechecking if you got it right. The shop is correct that there is no actual rear camber adjustment, and those camber bolts should be avoided, but they should have realized why the wheel camber is now way too positive and how to fix it. This occurs most every time a strut, or in the case of a 1st gen w, a shock that is part the suspension geometry, is replaced or disconnected. This should be a common, known thing to any professional.

[W30olds]

Just read this. Unsure if this will make sense, but I know exactly what's going on. What happened is that most replacement shocks have holes that are bigger than the bolts themselves. With the suspension unloaded (lifted off the ground) the top wants to come out (positive camber). The shocks bolts were installed with the suspension in this state and with room to play because of the holes larger than the bolts, the top of the wheel is now sticking out. You could loosen the nuts on those two shock bolts with the car sitting on the ground and with a thunk the tire will probably negative camber in a lot. Maybe even way too much. Or with those bolts loose and the wheel jacked off the ground, you'll find you probably can grab the wheel at 12 and 6 o'clock positions in your hands and camber it in and out.

 

Since this is not a proper specified adjustment, it can be a pain to get it aligned just right when one stop point is too far positive and the other is too far negative. It involves jacking the car up on the alignment rack, loosening those two bolts and moving the knuckle and shock to a position somewhere in the middle that yields the proper camber spec, tightening them and rechecking if you got it right. The shop is correct that there is no actual rear camber adjustment, and those camber bolts should be avoided, but they should have realized why the wheel camber is now way too positive and how to fix it. This occurs most every time a strut, or in the case of a 1st gen w, a shock that is part the suspension geometry, is replaced or disconnected. This should be a common, known thing to any professional.

Totally agree. This is what I've tried to explain to the idiots at Kauffman tire. The shocks and spring were changed with the suspension unloaded, therefore the rear end needs to be checked/adjusted with the suspension loaded on the alignment rack. They just act like I'm from another planet. Thanks for the input!

[Bake82]

You should take it to a good mechanic who knows more than what the "book" tells him.  Clearly the mechanics at Kauffman tire don't know what they're doing.  

 

It sucks you'll need to pay for an alignment, but this isn't that hard to do and if they can't understand the simple concept of loosening the knuckle to strut bolts, adjust the camber, and tighten them back up I wouldn't want them working on my car anyways.  

[Imp558]

Harbor freight sells a magnetic degree indicator tool thing that's not exactly a swiss watch but is more accurate than your eyes.

[W30olds]

You should take it to a good mechanic who knows more than what the "book" tells him. Clearly the mechanics at Kauffman tire don't know what they're doing.

 

It sucks you'll need to pay for an alignment, but this isn't that hard to do and if they can't understand the simple concept of loosening the knuckle to strut bolts, adjust the camber, and tighten them back up I wouldn't want them working on my car anyways.

I agree totally. After dealing with these people at Kauffman I will never do business with them again. I went there because they had the tires I wanted in stock. Otherwise I would have just ordered the tires and had Sams Club install them. I also needed the alignment done. After this set of tires I'll never use, nor recommend them to anyone I know.

 

The alignment I bought with the tires has a 12 months, or 12K warranty. When I left the car this past Saturday they "checked" the alignment but did nothing to the rear. This was after I told them about the repairs that were done on Friday and that the rear suspension needed to have the camber set. Go to get the car and suprise the rear wheels were still not correct. Then they said the rear has no adjustments for camber, just the toe. So I will take it to someone who knows how to fix the problem and not to Kauffman tire.

[Psych0matt]

For what it's worth when I lowered the GTP the only place that was able to align it was a specialty alignment place, which turned out ok because they were pretty cheap and did great. Some places didn't have equipment and some couldn't get me on the rack because of the height.

[W30olds]

It's all good now. The tire shop up by work fixed it up for me. Took them about 30 minutes to get the rear end all within the specs. Told them about my Kauffman drama and they just shook their heads and said...

 

"now you know where an alignment shop is next time you need work done"

 

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. Going to stop by Kauffman tomorrow with my invoice showing how the rear end was adjustable and how it was aligned correctly!

[mfewtrail]

Harbor freight sells a magnetic degree indicator tool thing that's not exactly a swiss watch but is more accurate than your eyes.

 

You can get angle finder apps for most smartphones free these days.

[W30olds]

It's began to settle down in the rear now. Here is a new pic of the side view.

[Schurkey]

Gotta wonder WHY the rear is settling.

 

In the "olden days", it was usually a matter of folks torquing the bolts that held the control arm bushings while the suspension was at full-droop.

 

When the car got put back on it's wheels, the rubber bushings were stressed and acting like additional spring stiffness.  Took several days or a couple of weeks for the rubber to tear.  Now the car was back at normal ride-height, but all the bushings were ruined.

 

There's no reason to believe that properly-made springs have any need to "settle".  Metal springs with improper heat-treatment might.  I don't know what the equivalent would be for plastic springs.

[Imp558]

I was also thinking the height should not change with a short passage of time.