Guest Posted November 5, 2002 Report Share Posted November 5, 2002 Just a quick question - how much boost can the 3.1 TGP engine safely hold up to? I'm not worried about how much the T25 can put out, just about how much the entire engine in general can safely handle. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 The bottom end should handle more boost just fine, or at least the 3100 block I have doesnt seem to mind. The stock compression ratio will be a pretty big limiting factor, larger intercooler may help some there though. The real problem is within the stock TGP PCM code, as the maximum boost is limited by a fuel cutoff in addition to the wastegate regulation. You can use a MBC to get by the PCM wastegate control, but without eprom code changes, you will still hit the fuel cutoff long before you ever see 10psig. If you address the PCM issues and use lower compression pistons along with some higher flowing injectors, you should be able to run 14 psig quite easily. Anything over 14.5 psig would require a 3-bar MAP sensor capable engine management system. Weather the TGP code could be modified to work with a 3-bar MAP is speculation at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeorge Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 I dont know maybe 18 psi but you would lose street drivability..... Jeff will Probly reply in a day or two and he would know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 18 psi ??? ROTFLMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeorge Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 like I said I dont know...I know when my Motor is done its going to be on an ajustible boost level from 10-16 psi but thats with $$$ poured into it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 I only say that because I run 14 psi, and I know how much money it costs to even get to that point on a 60 degree V6. The TGP PCM code is only capable of 14.5 PSI max, and even then, only with some very significant code changes made. Not saying that it cannot be done, just that its not very feasable unless you have much deeper pockets than me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeorge Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 like I said I dont know Im having the motor built for me and IM running an upgraded turbo when its...all said and done with.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 Well, it sounds like an interesting project. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeorge Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 it is....take alook http://www.geocities.com/ste_turbo/plans.html ahsnt been updated resently but youll get the point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 I think 410hp is probably a bit unrealistic, as it would require over 26 psi of boost to even get close to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeorge Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 I think 410hp is probably a bit unrealistic, as it would require over 26 psi of boost to even get close to that. Not Really Jeff M has Perfected the 350HP with out the use of such a big Turbo he only has a T28 I belive.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 350 hp from a T-28 ?? Perhap's someone is mixing dreams with reality here. My turbo is bigger than a T-28, and I am only pushing 270-280 max at 14 psi. That's on a race built 3100... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeorge Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 Yes but this person has a typhoon that can pop a wheelie... He knows these engines.....BELIVE ME...... any questions? not trying to start a pissing war or anything. and yeah I know its a bit much HP but thats what I am going for......everyone has to have a goal....what about the guy with a 2K gtp thats pulling constant low 12's ?? hmm he had to start somewhere.... and my goal of 410 I dont think is unreachable..... BTY barrowed from IDBEAST & the turbogp garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 Sorry, but unless he can produce a verified dyno slip, I will call it what it seems (ie..BS), I am sure you can respect that. And I believe I know a thing or two about building performance motors myself, as I have been doing so for the last 25 years.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 This IS NOT really aimed at any one person, general info that applies to any place people share words/help/stories. Sounds kinda tight here for the presence of so many hp mongers under one hood . First, I would like to say/set it straight that I always show respect till proven otherwise, I believe it the best way to start to get along with people if its possible. If I don't like someone that much or we don't click then I try to leave them on their own (that "respect" thing again, I DON'T need to approve of them or their words, and they sure don't need other's approvals either, and vise-versa for sure!!), unless their points could mislead others that are working on their endeavors or learning curves or projects or whatever, but to redirect or add to the info in a respectful and meaningful way. If someone wants to feel their TGP will run 12s or whatever then go nuts. I said this next phrase long time ago when I had time to be active posting on the first 2 TGP message boards (a friend David Zug and Shawn Lin) meaning I may not yet have a lot of posts here but started in 1996 on Dave Zug's and have done a good share for myself onward to the one Shawn ran for a long time (nice of him but wish I saw as many thank-yous to him as the times people go off). I think this should be considered and taken to heart, "Live your OWN quarter mile at a time!" If you know your shit, cool, if you like to know your shit, cool, if you are learning, cool, if you have no idea, fine too but like any of these scenarios and others, it does not take away from anyone's else's place long as you leave theirs alone, share if it helps or you enjoy it but no one likes to hear back and forth bickering, bottom line is I am sure we all would like to spend our time here filling up this Forum with useful info/great kills and such for each other and new/upcoming TGP owners instead of these kinds of words/getting close to be those kind of flaming words. Thanks for listening and I believe we all agree and can let this thread die now without finding one word or phrase to take out of context to get all bent again. I have been active on the net since 1995 and on a lot of forums, Message boards, mailing lists etc and it is always the same words that follow long painful threads; if you don't like what someone says, be a man/woman and ignore it, its that simple, if you have to have the last word then keep it short, if you got to retaliate then know the moderators are here to ban users if they offend too many people and waste the precious space that only a few are paying for. A note on my engine and the power quotes, I started long ago working on 3.1L but like I said above, that does not take away from someone else doing the same, hard to believe but there may be more than one who knows his shit on the Chevy 60 degree V6, odd thing is most times such minds agree/get along and their combined knowledge benefits both of them, I might be odd in thinking that. My path of knowledge is different than others and that is what helps round out when it is joined with another's path. I took the route of not trying to re-invent the wheel, talk to the guys who designed this engine, heads, cams etc (helps when you live near Detroit/Motor City!), and then on to those who raced them for years (Ryan Falconer, Kaytech Engines, Diamond Racing, Yenko Performance and Shelly Arkow, some of those names are too old for some to recognize but they are highly respected in their field in those days and many today as well!! These guys had no problem taking the 2.8 and getting around 230 to 240 hp with a2 barrel carb to start (no power adder, exotic worked heads etc), there is a guy here in MN where I reside for now that slapped a 4-71 blower on his 2.8 that ran 13.0 in a Pontiac Phoenix, another path traveled, then the 2.8 and later 3.1L was built by Kaytech, Falconer and others to make 300 to 350 hp with good worked stock heads, good size cam, headers and 4 barrel carb and 13:1 compression ration revving to 8,500 rpms on race gas. MANY of these engines were used professional in race series such as Kart, off-road S10 trucks Bahaaaaa and others. Falconer also made some 700 to 800 hp twin-turbo 60 degree V6s, on aluminum bowtie blocks. From taking the time to meet with some of these guys and phone calls with others, was able to get past a lot of hard learning curves stories! Then back to the GM side to study about the design of the engine heads etc, and being in Michigan/Detroit area helped immensely, but I will not give out those contacts out of respect (that word again) since they do not need or are paid to answer everyone's questions on moding their motors. The stock block is good for 300 to 350 hp no problem long as a good build is done and its tuned properly, ARP studs help to keep things together for the heads, but an O-Ring block is a better assurance, and I have 2 such blocks here, that are not for sale! 400 hp or a bit more is doable but the engine will flex at the main webbing so will not last as long as a lower hp number but some racers rebuild regularly anyways so don't care!! Aluminum bow-tie but around $3k to $4k is a lot unless you gotta have bragging rights or a big hp block that will allow huge power to be made and last. Well, that is some info I am sharing as this is what the Forum is here for, as for 350 hp on my engine, no one HAS to believe me, I don't mind if you don't, but by taking the TGP T-25 and upgrading it to a Super 60 T3/T28 whatever, makes the lb of air necessary to qualify for 350 hp, is not psi that explains hp, nor cfm though better, its air density rated in lbs of air flow over time and is how turbos are rated (Garrett's site shows lbs and hp so you can match up your thoughts, more work though to match up the A/R to your intake and cams being the main items to effect selection). Gen III heads and a lot more to marry well with the upgraded turbo etc.........the same junk on the bottom of all my posts, that I should take off if it ruffles the dander for some, and there is a lot more that would not fit since we are limited in characters but really my car only needs to impress me since I make the payments and put in the wrench time. On boost levels for stock (I assume) TGP 3.1L engine, which WAS supposed to be the topic of this posting. Based on a few variables, engine condition (rings and such), altitude, octane for sure and others, I have tested many here and remote running 89 to 94 octane and the levels while still making power, meaning the timing is not backed out so much as to negate any gains has been from 10 to 12 psi (few momentary blips higher). Like ANY engine, within limits, you can go higher, I ran 17 psi in 1st gear and 18 psi in second and third gear for 3 months and (took me a while to safely test my way up that high!!!) did not have any complaints from the knock sensor telling me my diet of 100%-100 octane was not enough 8) . I knew the stock intercooler needed some help and got a little though the main factor was to not expect to run this much boost/hot air coming out of that turbo unless the outside temps were around 50 degrees or less!! Now, FACT the stock pressure sensor for the computer is only a 2 bar unit/15 psi/104kPa above atmospheric and cannot read above 15 psi, no brainer to just tune the last timing and fueling values at the ends of those tables to what you need at the 17 to 18 psi range, computer will remember its last known values and work with them/use them, you just NEED to know what you are doing and approach it carefully, AND NO! PEOPLE, I do not condone this level of boost, I know my engine's condition, and that starts with all new sensors, injectors, fuel filter, ignition module/coil packs plug wires etc. If you had the same parts etc, even then your engine's condition or actually octane or combustion chamber build up level (more means less space-higher compression), and tons of variables can be there to get-ya if you are not keeping a constant eye on your engine!! 3bar chips really take out the resolution on the tuning tables and there are other good ways to get higher quality of air in to make more hp. I know some great guys who worked jointly to get a 3bar chip for the SyTys but that was a lot of work, I mean a ton of commitment, that still is having some teething to pass before it will be a blanket chip to use, the site of one chip seller makes a great point, he will not sell his modification kits without you havings a list of items correct, new fuel filter, spark plugs and wires, cap and rotor (sounds familiar!), this also helps reduce the variables for his chip to work better at agreeing with and achieving the extra power settings in his chip. Back to boost, at 10 to 12 psi the TGP engine is making around 240 to 260 hp, but that is not a "Peak" only gain, there is a huge power gain all over the rev band/power band that is all used when we accelerate from a stop. There is much more gained here than those numbers, why do you think there were posts on the older TGP MB of guys taking down some Supercharged GTPs? I don't have time for long posts like this so if someone adds good things here then cool, if more flames and picking a piece out to hang on to then the best is for others to ignore what you don't want to hear or don't need to hear. This Forum has been great and the many who have taken their personal time to provide help to those in need here is honorable, we have a lot of good knowledgeable people here, and at the other TGP Forum as well, those people there and here sure make it easier for me as I cannot keep up anymore with the many topics and many more emails on TGPs. Take care guys and we CAN GET along, or just exists in our own place being ignored but not forgotten :gone2far: Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 When I stated that I have found the maximum usable boost level of the TGP code to be 14.5 psi, I was NOT referring to limitations of the fuel and timing tables...the limiting factor is the overboost fuel cutoff. Although this is a common safety feature, the implementation method used in the TGP code seems to be rather unique. Perhaps you could explain what one would do about the overboost fuel cutoff threshold dilemma? Since it is a threshold, it cannot be disabled simply by setting it to 00 hex, as the PCM still see's this as a valid value. The only other alternative is to set it to its maximum (ff hex) which is 14.5 psi. Just because a turbo is capable of delivering enough air to produce a certain hp, does not mean you could easily achieve that power level. In fact, the rather limited rpm range and relatively low static VE of the pushrod 60 degree V6 pretty much guarantees that this will NOT be the case. Not that it really matters, but the Mits. TD05-big16g is rated for 380 hp: http://www.turbochargers.com/TurboUpgradecatalog/TD05H-BIG16G-7CM2.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeorge Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 yeah but it was a Fun debate...I said what I thought was Right and he said what he thought was Right.... and the origanal question is what can the motor handle and like I said I dont know it was a Guess of 18psi.....because if it wasnt that much I think GM would have had head gasket problems with these cars...for the Temp overboost that happens on some of these cars... and if you want to take a look at a turbo take a look at this one http://www.forcedperformance.net/dsm_turbo_big28.htm Not what I want to run but what some people do...... have a good one.... and heck if you ever need someone to debate with again just let me know....LOL Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 I don't really see as there was much of a debate here... As long as there are those that think they can make unbelievable claims of performance achievement with nothing to back them up, there will be those like me that will call them on it.. such is the internet. If someone is to reach a valid conclusion as to how much horsepower an engine can handle, they should seek more than just a bunch of speculation to base it on. Validated time slips, dyno runs, and documented history of engines longevity after a performance build should be used to determine this. At least I have offered some insight into the obstacles and limitations that one might encounter with a high performance build of a TGP engine, which I would hope to be of at least some value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Well I think George is one who is trying to not be so serious and bow out like a man while hoping his dignity is not blown all over the (public) place here and that some respect is mutually shared, but I seem to be the only one to recognize his humble offering of such, short of him laying down on the floor waiting for the heal marks :!: . If it was that hard to recognize then I will spell it out, his word used of "Debate" is to professionally avoid harsher words that kindle flames such as "Argument" or Bullshit", :read: ? Granted there was some sarcasm there but like I said, how much heal marks does he or anyone have to endure for someone who is being such a sweetheart :kiss: . He can build 400 hp in his engine if he wants, many things start as dreams and ideas then into plans and realities, but 400 hp and even 800 is doable (see more WAC points below/Wild-Ass-Claims), you know that is what the saying of "how fast do you want to spend" is for. If someone comes on here and brags we can live with it, that's life, internet or not, if they continue to go on too much, ignoring is easy to do less you just have to pound on people, oh I mean be on top of the topic or race, its easy to win, no effort to be a winner (another story to get your car there so you have a win) but admit some part of the responsibilites. Chris Walker who has been gracious enough to post on the other message boards (graciouse I feel since he seemed to be one of the first to tackle such a job and surely gets BOMBED with everyone wanting him to tell them how to do the same to whatever they drive/level of knowledge they have, eegadsz ) has somewhere around 500+ hp in his 3.1/3.2 whatever, in a Caviler, some hard work there that deserves respect even if he did not provide everyone with a dyno sheet, but the extensive web site with pics and info satisfies his claim, to the level it matters meaning if it "only" makes 475, still some hard work to get there. Ryan Falconer Racing has some 700-800 hp twin turbo setups for you to inspect and grant approval to the bragging rights of such an audacity :shock: . You did not "quote" who's power claims you were not going to believe but the idea of how much someone has or can get, wants is theirs to claim if they want, I know I see no motivation to prove my hp to anyone, I don't need thier approval or belief, last on my priority list And no George and me are not "buddies", or have even seen each other face to face, he has mentioned his ideas to me in emails and we have conversed, and there is a good chance he will go beyond what I plan to offer for the masses so no devotion or kiss-ass under those words he shows regarding a shared excitement and passion for the hard work/results shown (by me for now) on TGP engines (there are others I know with mod'd TGP motors as well) and what he wants and believes he can do. Hell this is embarrassing but my ego is not so big, and am man enough to admit that I do not remember "IF" he has bought any of my (2) wears/products, and will have to check his web site to be sure, I cannot remember all my words and work done for over 2,000 TGP owners since 1996, and no I won't take time to type up the list of names to prove it That was fun, oh yea......George DOES know how to take away the problematic fuel cut issue but he will not tell out of respect for some, or lack there of for others. What is fun on this board are race stories or fun drives or such, even if I don't have a video to back it up. One test (back in 1996)in preparation to be race worthy was what me and Dave Zug did with my totally stock engine/turbo etc TGP, to wire the wastegate closed (so much for lame people/weak people who think threading a wastegate is the way to go ). We got 20 psi out of the little T-25 for a few rpms before the engine revved enough to ingest that down to 18 psi, he is on the Diacom watching knock retard and I am on the boost gauge (who was driving this out of control power toy :?: ), and we lit the tires on a roll at 35 mph, pure joy, even if I blew the engine, well almost ok, but we had enough extra heavy aromatic hydrocarbons in there to help, and the ambient we knew would help some being 35 degrees outside with a non-heat soaked engine. We decided to back that down some and try the old threaded wastegate idea, it worked though no more 20 psi . :!: AND NO :!: do not do this to your TGP just because it was done :!: Threading the wastegate will find the boost cut in a hurry, or if you are chip'd, run more boost than makes power meaning the higher levels will have so much timing taken out to be safe to only visit, but you do not want to live there, stay at chip'd recommended constant values of 10 to 12 psi give or take a little out side air density, winter makes the boost gauge show higher pressure values, and oh yea it is talking the truth. Well, that is how to end on a happy note, serious when REALLY needed but till then, Jeff M Totally stock TGP engine, zero to 60 in 5.09, pic on my web site if needed that bad, ok I bragged, and maybe there was some extra external tweaks to show some numbers the TGP community would enjoy braggin rights about even more than me! But I have time slips of just chip'd TGP owners running bests from 14.4 down to some mild worked 13.56 (he beat me!!!, last I ran my TGP 4 years ago only got a 13.89), can't wait to test some bigger turbos than stock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iTurbo Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 How do you get rid of the overboost cut-off? I assume the computer initiates overboost cutoff when a certain MAP sensor voltage is reached or exceeded? On a 2 bar MAP, at 14.5 psi, this would be around 4.7 volts or so. On my TurboDodge vehicle, I use a zener diode to prevent the ECU from seeing over that voltage. Of course, it's up to *you* to add fuel with boost beyond that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Ya a TGP owner? That idea is not too bad and sure works, similar to a way I used and like you said, make sure the extra rich fueling from the factory lets you steal a few extra psi without problems and you are all set. Was running down our miracle mile and was next to a Hennessy 550hp Viper Venom, like he saw me (?) or cared (?) but when he blipped the throttle, moved like a slingshot 6 car lengths ahead with no effort, goosebumps were had :shock: Soon there was a yellow Dodge Charger or Daytona, can't remember but one of those FWD turbo ones, light car and factory supported upgrades, duh like GM and Ford could learn a little here, on a 30 mph roll and roasts the tires, WTF, time to check this out, sorry the road is so packed with hottie-rods no room to play so we get a room, I mean pull over so I can lift its hood and look inside, sure enough, hot factory upgrade parts, and it runs 12.8, from that take off on a roll next to me would about prove that enough for our evening's talk, tech talk till time ran out. Good thing I am from old school and faithful to the one I love (TGP), could of been a wild night. Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iTurbo Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Ya a TGP owner? Not yet, but I am thinking about buying one locally. It has been sitting for a while and needs a new turbocharger. That idea is not too bad and sure works, similar to a way I used and like you said, make sure the extra rich fueling from the factory lets you steal a few extra psi without problems and you are all set. It sounds like the stock fuel system has some overhead built into it. How much boost will a factory fuel system support? Was running down our miracle mile and was next to a Hennessy 550hp Viper Venom, like he saw me (?) or cared (?) but when he blipped the throttle, moved like a slingshot 6 car lengths ahead with no effort, goosebumps were had Soon there was a yellow Dodge Charger or Daytona, can't remember but one of those FWD turbo ones, light car and factory supported upgrades, duh like GM and Ford could learn a little here, on a 30 mph roll and roasts the tires, WTF, time to check this out, sorry the road is so packed with hottie-rods no room to play so we get a room, I mean pull over so I can lift its hood and look inside, sure enough, hot factory upgrade parts, and it runs 12.8, from that take off on a roll next to me would about prove that enough for our evening's talk, tech talk till time ran out. Good thing I am from old school and faithful to the one I love (TGP), could of been a wild night. Sounds like the Mopar Performance Super 60 kit. Bigger turbo, 52lb/hr injectors, 3 bar calibration, higher flowing intercooler, and ported SOHC 8V head. Good for 300 HP and over 300 lb/ft torque at wheels. I would love to see what a TGP could do with similar mods! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 iTurbo, Smart to do some cruising on TGP owner sites first to get an idea on them, like any car they all have their personalities, some owners of TGPs feel their car is a pain with its issues but guys that work in the trade servicing cars, like Chris A, don't see that much difference, new or old every car has its issues, I remember earlier this year when BMW recalled a huge number of their cars, only to recall them again for more problems, serious enough problems to warrant a recall (though GM would not be for forthcoming!) Add 12 years and that does not help any mechanical device left in the elements, and if you want all the options and toys to work, some more issues, BUT many owners, including my self feel the TGP offers so much; looks/aero kit already installed; power/turbo cars don't need much to wake up and, an Intercooled and wet turbo on a 6 cylinder is a great combo; handling/smooth enough for long cruises, sporty enough for creative driving; room for traction/245mm tires stock; Awesome sound stage for those who have done some audio upgrades, and with options like 12 way leather seating, retracting or venting moonroof, info rich hud, dic, more, a really great car with a lineage from McLaren to compliment it even more. I could go on but don't want to spoil the surprise when you score!! As for all the tons of posts on power levels, boost etc, glad to see you have a knowledge on power evident from being able to rattle off that MP stuff, and yes, that is sorta the same turbo I run that makes 350 flywheel, 300+ at the wheels (3.1L size motor advantage, or 3.2). Some here are still on the upswing of knowledge which is great, learn away, just some have much more to learned on how to respect or handle others that have better things (hp, knowledge etc) just got to know there is always someone faster, smarter and better looking, fact of life, so on to what matters, living your own life to its fullest, some humility goes a long way and for sure is a better way to ask for info from some knowledgeable people, who have truly already been there, we got quite a few great ones here!! So you and I know that long as fuel is there, a bigger turbo blowing more mass air/not psi is going to make more power than a little turbo with little mass air/high psi and heat. I see my buddy Curtis Walker is here to inadvertently mention the same via his little 60 degree V6 running 12s on 11 to 12 psi which IS holding that setup back for now, hope that helps some other people consider learning more here ;-). So as a newbie, sorry you had to be in this post that got off tract, will pick things up when I can on other tracks with you and others. As for TGP power with stock things like fuel pump and injectors, take out the fuel cut and you will see upwards of 10 degrees knock retard (or more but I am not going to prove it!), from the stock timing at 10 psi (at least) and some warm outside air temps, not good or safe, so there needs to be some timing taken out in one of the timing tables. Chip'd though and no problem running 10 to 12 psi (with enough timing that makes power, stock is way too high and was never dyno calibrated or expected to be run since fuel cut happens before the fun begins), 13 to 14 psi only when cold enough but to keep it safe the timing is taken down a bit in one table, left alone in another to make use of cooler air. Lot less timing as approaching 14 to 15 psi so as to keep things safe for 92 octane but no power gains from all the timing taken out, just hot exhaust gases! Add the points I made above regarding higher boost and higher octane to this for a good round up. You probably know that a 12 year old fuel pump with 150K miles is not going to be putting huge amounts out and replacing it with sock filter and in line stock fuel filter as a good idea chip'd or not! And other things like this. YES the fuel is rich stock in quite a few areas, all chips stock pretty much get this in boost but this stock chip has it done all over the place and hackers scream trying to get all the areas address to run power A/F ratios that matter. Sorry my composing is not up to par, getting tired from too many emails and projects going on here, hired someone to help me take care of some of the things that I cannot get to, 7 old crossover pipe cores here that need to be prepped and inspected before they go to the welders, 14 flange clamps to modify for the pipes as well. Tons more like running the new wide band o2 now, great little tool. Later and good luck, check the other TGP Forum for the info you sound like you are getting into, will be faster than waiting for it to be posted here. Though I enjoy both, sure no time to post both. Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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