rich_e777 Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Every once in awhile my Cutlass doesn't want to start, I have full power to everything good battery, alternator and new starter. PNRD safety switch replaced last year. So its making me suspect the ignition switch and I`d like some ideas on how to go about testing it when the failure occurs by myself. Wanting to rig up a test light so that I can probe the terminals on the starter solenoid but this usually happens when I'm by myself and no remote start device. Any ideas for that would be cool, also interested in any locations inside the car for probing purposes. Another question would be about the sensor on the key (passkey? or I might be thinking something else) If the thing on the key or inside the cylinder doesn't connect or activate what happens when you turn the key ON but not ignition? Can you still get full power to everything just no engine start? Also I had 2-3 warning chimes after the engine was started the other day(not everytime) and I remember reading along time ago that was not a good thing but I cannot find anywhere what it means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartbeat1991 Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 A passkey issue would cause the security light to come on, and I think it will flash if it's actively killing the engine. The engine should still crank, as I recall, but no fire. You could jump the starter terminals with a screwdriver and the key on if it won't crank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron350 Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Just to be clear is your starter not working or will the motor not start and run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_e777 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 A passkey issue would cause the security light to come on, and I think it will flash if it's actively killing the engine. The engine should still crank, as I recall, but no fire. You could jump the starter terminals with a screwdriver and the key on if it won't crank. Ok, wasn't sure what would happen in that scenario. I have jumped the car before and IIRC that will bypass the ignition switch right? Im going on the idea that if the above happens and I test the little terminal on the solenoid and get no power to it while cranking then the ignition switch is bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_e777 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Just to be clear is your starter not working or will the motor not start and run? Most times the starter works just fine(exploding to life would not be inaccurate), just trying to see if the starter is getting the signal from the switch and figured I`d start back probing on the solenoid. The few times its happened no one else has been around or awake that late to get up and drive downtown to hold a test probe in a hospital parking garage. I was actually hoping it would happen at AutoZone so I can get some one to help me out for a second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_e777 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Sounds like an ignition switch anyways doesn't it? Especially since I can solenoid jumpstart it. I get little sleep and retard moments are becoming more frequent as opposed to the once in awhile frequency. Edited January 19, 2015 by rich_e777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron350 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Yep you are looking for about 12 volts at the small purple wire on the starter solenoid after turning the key from run to start. My 96 factory manual shows a yellow wore leaving the Ignition Switch and going through the Theft Deterrrent Relay. The wire leaving the TDR is purple and goes to the starter solenoid. I think I have read about one bad TDR relay but several people had bad purple wires near the starter solenoid. Hope that some one chimes in with a 94 service manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_e777 Posted January 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Ive got one at home but haven't had the time to get into just yet. I always like to ask about intermittent failures and I'm sort of torn between failing ignition switch or an issue with the key and cylinder, or something else. There are times when it wouldn't start and after checking the connection for looseness it would start and then the last time which was about a week ago I wiped the key off and that let the engine crank. The time before that I had cleaned all the terminal connections with a wire brush and I thought that had fixed the problem. That was a bit after the starter and neutral safety switch was replaced. Happens maybe once in every 3-4 months. Those few times I didn't have access to tunerpro either if that would help In the diagnosis. Edited January 20, 2015 by rich_e777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Alligator clips, some wire, and either a light bulb or multimeter? When it's not starting, you could just clip 1 wire to the solenoid and 1 wire to ground, use wire that's long enough you can put the light bulb on the cowl or somewhere you can see it. Also fancier multimeters often have a record function that tells min and max voltage. That way, you don't even need to see it, but just clip it on using alligator clips, try to crank it, then check the meter to see what the max voltage it ever measured (should be >12V going to solenoid). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_e777 Posted January 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I had thought about using some of those but I`d hate to risk something shifting close to make contact and really fry something. Well suppose I use a standard test light and a pair of jumpers to make a testing rig long enough so I can lay the test light in view but wrap all the exposed connections in electrical tape, what I come up with this morning but I need a pair of jumper wire first. Getting into the manual gave insight into the weird chime, and since I`ve only got a PT shift today and tomorrow I think I might get into the dash and column a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 You could probably use small alligator clips and speaker cable. Doesn't need to be heavy gauge wire because it'll just need to carry enough current to light up a bulb. Strip off a good amount of wire on the end and wrap it around your test light leads and electrical tape. Most people probably have a box laying around in a closet or somewhere with a bunch of extra speaker wire in it. I know I do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadfoot Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Does the starter solenoid click when you turn the key, but doesn't start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 both the passkey module not being able to read the key or the theft deterent relay it controls getting janky can do this... could bypass the theft deterent relay by unplugging it and bridging the two load terminals together in its socket with an appropriately sized wire. that would prevent the passkey module from ever preventing you from cranking, at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_e777 Posted January 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Like a discharged battery or failing starter? No, as far as I can tell the starter acts as if no power is getting to it when the issue occurs. It starts at least 97%-98% of the time. I do hear the fuel pump and misc relays wake up as normal. I just realized that even if I do have the ability to test the system I will only get a few no start, no crank key turns until the engine actually does fire up, and continues to do so for weeks if not months before it happens again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_e777 Posted January 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 both the passkey module not being able to read the key or the theft deterent relay it controls getting janky can do this... could bypass the theft deterent relay by unplugging it and bridging the two load terminals together in its socket with an appropriately sized wire. that would prevent the passkey module from ever preventing you from cranking, at least. ... and if the passkey module doesn't read the key then nothing will be detected at the starter terminal right? Maybe cleaning out the ignition cylinder will help things, reading that section now. I didn't know it was here, these 3 pages were buried in this thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 well, if the passkey module doesn't like what it's seeing(or not seeing), it will keep the relay in the unpowered position, which doesn't allow +12V to reach the starter solenoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Like a discharged battery or failing starter? No, as far as I can tell the starter acts as if no power is getting to it when the issue occurs. It starts at least 97%-98% of the time.I do hear the fuel pump and misc relays wake up as normal. I just realized that even if I do have the ability to test the system I will only get a few no start, no crank key turns until the engine actually does fire up, and continues to do so for weeks if not months before it happens again. That's exactly the symptoms I had with the starter in the 89 and 94. They would crank fine majority of the time, but every once in awhile, just wouldn't crank for no particular reason. They would usually crank after a 2nd attempt. On the 89, the last straw came when one day it wouldn't crank at all when I went to leave Braums and head back to work. Had to leave it on the Braum's parking lot, but when my wife brought me back to the car at the end of the day, it was able to crank as though nothing was ever wrong. I decided at that point to replace its starter with a mini-starter off of a 3100 and that did fix it. Same thing happened to the 94, but I didn't wait long enough for it to leave the wife stranded. I went ahead and bought a mini-starter for it, too. Can't remember why I didn't think it was Passkey, but fortunately it was the starter as that never happened again. I think I managed to find a low-mileage mini starter for something like $15 shipped on eBay, so it wasn't a big deal to swap it out. The mini starters are a ton easier to install than the big ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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