1988 Regal 2.8 MPFI cold engine stalls off idle or reverse

[reliantkcar]

just got a decent condition 1988 regal custom.

 

90k miles no rot minor rust

 

when it's cold or first started it stalls when you hit the gas at idle. it will idle smooth and no CEL.

when you go to accelerate it bogs and stalls or almost stalls then grabs.

 

tried disconnecting MAF but it got worse and bucked during the driving range too.

 

once it's warmed up after 5-10 minutes driving off idle is a very small hesitation but drives nice.

 

oddly if I shut it off hot and restart it seems to reset the stall timer and you have to drive it a few minutes before it's ok again

 

I got it for $400 and don't want to have a money pit.I have 4 other cars but i wanted a comfortable automatic American car

[reliantkcar]

Ok so I found it had a 3.1 90-93 ecm in it the whole time. I went to a really crappy junkyard and shoveled out a 89 cutlass 2.8. Swapped ecm and no more sputtering and it accelerates smooth But, it starts then stalls when hot. I have to hit the gas to get it to stay on. And it sometimes idle surges and throws code 44&45 and it smells rich at idle. Fuel pressure is 40psi key on holds steady. I unplugged the FPR and tasted gas if I sucked on the vac hose. With vac hose unplugged I get 45psi at idle. I'm at the dealer right now getting the subframe bolt recall done and it stalls out after hot restart and idle surges.

 

Is it the O2 sensor or fpr or a injector

Any ideas

[rich_e777]

How is the spark plugs, wires, coils and ICM?, also could be a bad injector if its not atomizing fuel. Maybe try some fuel injector cleaner of your choice and see if that helps. I`m told the Chevron Techron is the best followed by Seafoam, or you can start using the Lucas fuel treatment and upper engine lubricant in every fill up and se if that doesn't help you out.

 

That 89 Cutlass didn't happen to have a digital cluster or HUD in it by any chance did it?

[Garrett Powered]

I had to tune my 88 and all my tgp's so they don't do that any more. its a very common thing for early 1st gen w's, Im not 100% sure why

[55trucker]

My suggestion to you before spending any more money on this is to......verify which particular ECM & the proper EPROM is correct for your application. The housings are universal to a degree but the EPROM is not.

 

Seeing as you did not have the correct unit to start with & the replacement came from another vehicle you may still have an issue there.

 

 

http://www.exatorq.com/ludis_obd1/p4xref.html

[reliantkcar]

yes the cutlass had a full digital with Tach. and I did the front plugs doing the back 3 today and the O2 sensor

[wildfan1976]

just got a decent condition 1988 regal custom.

 

90k miles no rot minor rust

 

when it's cold or first started it stalls when you hit the gas at idle. it will idle smooth and no CEL.

when you go to accelerate it bogs and stalls or almost stalls then grabs.

 

tried disconnecting MAF but it got worse and bucked during the driving range too.

 

once it's warmed up after 5-10 minutes driving off idle is a very small hesitation but drives nice.

 

oddly if I shut it off hot and restart it seems to reset the stall timer and you have to drive it a few minutes before it's ok again

 

I got it for $400 and don't want to have a money pit.I have 4 other cars but i wanted a comfortable automatic American car

 

Check the resistance of all the injectors. Common for them to do this when you have low resistance on some injectors. Should have around 12.2 ohms, when they get 11 ohms or below they start to all sorts of funny stuff.

[reliantkcar]

I just changed the rear plugs and the O2 sensor almost no change. I'm going to check injector resistance and the FPR for fuel in the vacuum line. If this doesn't fix it I'm filling the car with old air conditioners and brake rotors and junking it. And never buying a american POS car ever again.I should have stuck with honda/toyota..........

[Schurkey]

If this doesn't fix it I'm filling the car with old air conditioners and brake rotors and junking it. And never buying a american POS car ever again.I should have stuck with honda/toyota..........

You buy an almost thirty-year-old car, and then cry like a little girl when it needs some repairs?

 

I'd have expected a guy with a screen-name of "Reliant K Car" to have a much finer sense of humor about old cars and frustrating problems that they present. I used to work on Chyzzzler K-cars and the variants of the K platform. Woof.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, yeah...I had an '80 Honda Civic that threw #3 connecting rod out the front of the block at 58,000 miles. Don't tell me that Honda is the pinnacle of quality. Three rods and three rod bearings look beautiful--hard to tell they'd been used. One bearing is burnt black, spun, and it's on the only connecting rod I've ever held in my hand that broke into four pieces--WITHOUT breaking either rod bolt.

[White93z34]

There is any number of things that it could be. But start from the top.

 

Has it ever had the 88' only MAF recall done? 88' Was the only year that had MAF on the W body and it was troublesome. I don't know the specifics of the recall but I think they fitted a regular MAP and turned the MAF into a glorified IAT.

 

That said, what is the BCC code on the EPROM in the Computer (its just 4 letters long) Even if it has a 89' 2.8 chip in it it could still be wrong for what the car is.

 

Also some of the electronics don't like time or sitting, Injectors may be shot. You'll be in for some regular troubleshooting to diagnose whats going on.

[Nas Escobar]

I just changed the rear plugs and the O2 sensor almost no change. I'm going to check injector resistance and the FPR for fuel in the vacuum line. If this doesn't fix it I'm filling the car with old air conditioners and brake rotors and junking it. And never buying a american POS car ever again.I should have stuck with honda/toyota..........

 

Right, because an oil burning in need of piston rings pos Toyota or Honda would be better than diagnosing a 27 year old car. Next time, stick to a high mileage 2005+ car if you just want something to toss around.

 

Now, have you ever thought about vacuum leaks? I'm pretty sure in a 27 year old car, any hard plastic or gasket would be toast, especially since it has such low mileage indicating that it wasn't used much. I would get some carb cleaner and spray around the vacuum lines and lower intake manifold gasket. I had a similar issue with my 94 Cutlass and it turned out to be the Lower Intake Manifold gaskets. I've changed em out (twice) and now my engine is as strong as ever. Granted it's also had a tuneup, but still. It's a turnkey car and I know it won't let me stranded.

 

Seriously, you should start with a classic diagnostic test. Check compression, check the coils/distributor for strong spark. A weak spark will also cause this. Check the injectors as you said as well.

[reliantkcar]

The first jap car i bought(89 prelude 490k) actually still runs today 10 years later and it was 200 from a junkyard and besides rust and normal maintenance never any issues

I've owned over 100 cars and usually when i buy a beater honda or toyota they won't die or give annoying issues like this.Even the Buick dealer who did my frame bolts last week (Prime Hanover) When i was on hold the message said on there pre-owned honda toyota's there is a Lifetime powertrain warrantee.When I asked why no faith in GM they just lol'd. don't believe me call them yourselves 1845 Washington St, Hanover, MA 02339

(781) 826-8300

 

actually I currently own a

 

91 honda accord with 100k(had it for 4 years got it with a bad tcm after that drives mint) miles and only problem ever was the distributor(they put the coil inside and it gets heat damaged often)

89 honda prelude 490k miles totally rotted out but runs mint never broke down or kept me stranded (bought from a junkyard 10 years ago for $200 while looking for a part for my Pontiac 6000)

86 toyota corolla 120k runs mint(had it 2 years bought for 400) never broke down just rotted out floors gas neck

 

in the past i've owned a bunch of gm's

1990 pontiac 6000 3.1 thm 300c (rotted away junked,never died though)

1991 pontiac 6000 3.1 thm 440 (shifted hard sold it before it died

1990 pontiac sunbird turbo (bought for $100 did head gasket, turbo went then cops stole it and when i won the case(expired plate) the towing company junked before came to get it

1989 pontiac firebird 2.8 kept running like shit shifting out of OD sold to buy the 6000

1991 cavalier rs 3.1 thm 300c bumper frame fell off heater core blew and sold it for 200

1985 c2500 center fold tow truck 454 3 speed with super low(always problems but it was a tow truck)

1990 olds cutlass supreme 3.1 thm 440 bought for 300 was last gm i had (2010) had it 6 months and one day I pushed it racing a shitty civic and after that it was a basket case stalling bucking no codes changed cps,tps,cts,plugs o2 sold it for 400

1988 cutlass supreme 2.8 thm 440 bought it for $20 back in 2001 with a smashed front and drove till the hood kept bending/opening sold for 300

and a few other i forgot....

 

today I'm pulling the plenum AGAIN the pcv siezed and theres milk in the oil and I'm going to test the injectors,I have a bad feeling it's the main harness because this car has no AC and the harness was rubbing the belt by the pully. no broken wires but I see holes in the injector wires from probes so I know this thing was someone elses headache.....

[reliantkcar]

my buddie has a GM obd1 scanner buried somewhere he got it to tune his riviera 3.8SC what am i looking for as far as readings. It starts then stalls immediately when hot and if i rev it it revs high then drops then idle surges and stalls every time i come to a stop unless I drive alot and it runs good till it is restarted. Is there a ECM ground or something I'm missing.and all vacuum lines are ripped off and replaced I got a new black rubber vacuum thing from the 89 cutlass

[pitzel]

This might sound dumb, but have you cleaned the throttle body and idle air passages?

[Schurkey]

Oh, yeah...I had an '80 Honda Civic that threw #3 connecting rod out the front of the block at 58,000 miles. Don't tell me that Honda is the pinnacle of quality. Three rods and three rod bearings look beautiful--hard to tell they'd been used. One bearing is burnt black, spun, and it's on the only connecting rod I've ever held in my hand that broke into four pieces--WITHOUT breaking either rod bolt.

 

I dug around and found an old photo of the rod. The pieces have been gone for years, but the photo remains. It's a shitty photo, and it got too near some sparks from grinding--so there's little burn-marks all over it. I had to take a digital picture of the Polaroid picture to get it on the 'net.

[reliantkcar]

UPDATE:

Today was supposed to be laundry,pay bills,range day but it was Buick day

 

So I drove to the parking lot and the CEL lights code 45 after 3 minutes being on wtf.....then pulled the plenum (slightly more annoying than 3.1 heat pipe instead of booster hose and diff pcv type)

also the oil sensor plug was soaked in oil so I bough a new sensor I'll do it when i get time.....

the intake hose was filled with water and sludge from the pcv I guess. I bought a nice $30 auto sensing mutimeter and Injector readings were

 

1=12.9

2=12.6

3=9.0

4=12.9

5=8.8

6=12.6

 

So i got in my trusty accord and went straight to the junkyards

first yard was a nightmare walked 200 yards through 8 feet deep snow to reach a cutlass supreme and it was a damn 96

next yard was really clean but oldest gm was a 93 century 3.3

third yard was score 92 lumina euro really nice but it died from a 50 cent hose. I pulled the plenum and there was coolant everywhere and a split hose white heat color slice to the TB had spit coolant over my new injectors. they all specced out 12.2 and 12.1. then i needed my 8mm and the guy says I have 15 minutes wtf.... so I tried to save the harness incase i need it. I wanted the whole rail and injectors but no time so I wiggled and pried the rail up and grabbed 3 injectors and got a Map sensor (remember my code 44 & 45)

 

So back to the parking lot (nosey neighbors like to call the cops on me every time I work on the car but they just pull up see me and leave so it was all good just annoying)

I carefully pulled the rail and double checked the impedance. after 4 hours the bad ones went up to 10.0 and 9.0 respectively(maybe heat makes em get bad). So i cleaned everything and used some oil from the dipstick to lube the O-rings.I changed the smashed pcv hose with a new one fom a 3.1 94+( I needed a single sharp bend since the 2.8 has the air nipple on the lower manifold not the upper plenum like 3.1 so i had to cut the second bend off) one injector had trouble going in so i wiggled them all and slowly tightened the bolts.everything back together and I swapped in the lumina map sensor too.reconnected the ecm fuse turned key waited a few seconds fuel pump prime. It started rough for a second then revved up and slowly idled down. No leaks Cel lights

 

drove a few miles no surging stalling at idle(slightly rougher than before but barely noticable). hot restart it revs high then settles. I drove to autozone returned the plenum gasket set for some chevron techron injector cleaner and hit the highway.then went to sears to return some broken breaker bars and when i came out 10 minutes later it started then stalled then it started idled at like 100rpm then died,then finnally i gave it gas it revved high and smelled rich and smoothed out. So i drove to return a SS bolt to home depot and there was no idle issues at all. 5 minutes later hot restart it starts revs high then settles,10 minutes later chinese food, 5 minutes after i restarted it and it reved high then settled again, 5 miniutes later went to 7-11 for drinks,2 minutes later restart and starts smooth no revving up just normal speed(yesterday it stalled 5 times trying to back out of same parking lot annoying and dangerous)drove home no surging stalling at red lights.

 

So the ecm was maybe relearning or the start then stall thing is something else since it was/is still present,but no more constant stalling surging at idle as far as i see.

tomorrow we'll see how it goes hopefully that's it.

 

I still have to do the vacuum block thing and the oil sensor thats leaking/seeping

 

 

Oh and a 80 civic is nothing like my 89 prelude.

it has a aluminum block/head,fully forged internals

DOHC solid lifters

screw in freeze plugs

F1 racing derived PGFI system much better then Rochester Quadrabog developed MPFI POS gm buck stall direct ignition shit

has 210psi compression after 500k miles almost no blow by

all original sensors only code ever was speed sensor since the speedometer cable seized at 277,000 sensor is in cluster

 

this car at 350k in 2010 drove to florida from boston and back going 70-90mph the whole way averaging 34.7 mpg at 75mph at 3500rpm who needs overdrive.... (28mpg at 90mph 4500rpm)

been shifted from 3rd redline to 2nd at 10,000 rpm by friend who can't drive stick back in 2006 still runs mint

I left it running for 4 hours with the fan switch broke and temp was touching the red but no damage back in 2010

if it wasn't rotted to hell i'd put it back on the road but for now it's on death row in my uncles yard.

[wildfan1976]

UPDATE:

Today was supposed to be laundry,pay bills,range day but it was Buick day

 

So I drove to the parking lot and the CEL lights code 45 after 3 minutes being on wtf.....then pulled the plenum (slightly more annoying than 3.1 heat pipe instead of booster hose and diff pcv type)

also the oil sensor plug was soaked in oil so I bough a new sensor I'll do it when i get time.....

the intake hose was filled with water and sludge from the pcv I guess. I bought a nice $30 auto sensing mutimeter and Injector readings were

 

1=12.9

2=12.6

3=9.0

4=12.9

5=8.8

6=12.6

 

So i got in my trusty accord and went straight to the junkyards

first yard was a nightmare walked 200 yards through 8 feet deep snow to reach a cutlass supreme and it was a damn 96

next yard was really clean but oldest gm was a 93 century 3.3

third yard was score 92 lumina euro really nice but it died from a 50 cent hose. I pulled the plenum and there was coolant everywhere and a split hose white heat color slice to the TB had spit coolant over my new injectors. they all specced out 12.2 and 12.1. then i needed my 8mm and the guy says I have 15 minutes wtf.... so I tried to save the harness incase i need it. I wanted the whole rail and injectors but no time so I wiggled and pried the rail up and grabbed 3 injectors and got a Map sensor (remember my code 44 & 45)

 

So back to the parking lot (nosey neighbors like to call the cops on me every time I work on the car but they just pull up see me and leave so it was all good just annoying)

I carefully pulled the rail and double checked the impedance. after 4 hours the bad ones went up to 10.0 and 9.0 respectively(maybe heat makes em get bad). So i cleaned everything and used some oil from the dipstick to lube the O-rings.I changed the smashed pcv hose with a new one fom a 3.1 94+( I needed a single sharp bend since the 2.8 has the air nipple on the lower manifold not the upper plenum like 3.1 so i had to cut the second bend off) one injector had trouble going in so i wiggled them all and slowly tightened the bolts.everything back together and I swapped in the lumina map sensor too.reconnected the ecm fuse turned key waited a few seconds fuel pump prime. It started rough for a second then revved up and slowly idled down. No leaks Cel lights

 

drove a few miles no surging stalling at idle(slightly rougher than before but barely noticable). hot restart it revs high then settles. I drove to autozone returned the plenum gasket set for some chevron techron injector cleaner and hit the highway.then went to sears to return some broken breaker bars and when i came out 10 minutes later it started then stalled then it started idled at like 100rpm then died,then finnally i gave it gas it revved high and smelled rich and smoothed out. So i drove to return a SS bolt to home depot and there was no idle issues at all. 5 minutes later hot restart it starts revs high then settles,10 minutes later chinese food, 5 minutes after i restarted it and it reved high then settled again, 5 miniutes later went to 7-11 for drinks,2 minutes later restart and starts smooth no revving up just normal speed(yesterday it stalled 5 times trying to back out of same parking lot annoying and dangerous)drove home no surging stalling at red lights.

 

So the ecm was maybe relearning or the start then stall thing is something else since it was/is still present,but no more constant stalling surging at idle as far as i see.

tomorrow we'll see how it goes hopefully that's it.

 

I still have to do the vacuum block thing and the oil sensor thats leaking/seeping

 

 

Oh and a 80 civic is nothing like my 89 prelude.

it has a aluminum block/head,fully forged internals

DOHC solid lifters

screw in freeze plugs

F1 racing derived PGFI system much better then Rochester Quadrabog developed MPFI POS gm buck stall direct ignition shit

has 210psi compression after 500k miles almost no blow by

all original sensors only code ever was speed sensor since the speedometer cable seized at 277,000 sensor is in cluster

 

this car at 350k in 2010 drove to florida from boston and back going 70-90mph the whole way averaging 34.7 mpg at 75mph at 3500rpm who needs overdrive.... (28mpg at 90mph 4500rpm)

been shifted from 3rd redline to 2nd at 10,000 rpm by friend who can't drive stick back in 2006 still runs mint

I left it running for 4 hours with the fan switch broke and temp was touching the red but no damage back in 2010

if it wasn't rotted to hell i'd put it back on the road but for now it's on death row in my uncles yard.

Good to hear it worked. Ive seen alot of problems with the old style multec injectors in the old 2.8 and 3.1s in those years in my 20+ years of wrenching for a living. And yes the computer was just learing how to idle again after your repairs.