Mark 97 Cutlass Coupe Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 I'm trying to get off the bracket that holds the caliper, so I can replace the rotor. It has some sort of allen/torx head that I can't seem to match up with the tools I have. I have a T-60, a T-55 I think, and neither work. Is it an allen head bolt, or something else? If it is, does anyone know the size? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94 olds vert Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Its a T60. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark 97 Cutlass Coupe Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Are there different kinds of T-60's? I just bought one from NAPA with my brake parts, thinking I had read somewhere that it was a T-60. But, the socket doesn't want to go all the way in, and when I applied a little pressure, the socket popped off, like it was the wrong size. The socket says something about being a safety socket, and has a small hole in the middle. Help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94 olds vert Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 I have one that looks like this. This is what your caliper bolt should look like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 I don't think I've ever seen a caliper bracket bolt that pretty and shiny before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94 olds vert Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Not a 15+ year old W-body anyway. lol I bought new ones for the 'vert and I clear coated them. They have held up well. Probably because it doesn't get driven ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark 97 Cutlass Coupe Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 I just went to the garage to get what I bought. It says T60H Tamper Proof Star Bit Socket. There is a hole in the center of the socket, and I swear it looks a little domed, instead of flat on the end. It looks different from all my other torx sockets. The one I bought must be for some specialized usage. When you took yours apart, did it come apart easily with a 1/2 breaker bar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94 olds vert Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 If it has a hole in the center of a T bit those are usually used for security bolts. Like this: I have done brakes on two different 1st gen Ws. One came off no problem with an impact and the other I had to fight for a few days because of rust. Heat them up and if you have a impact gun you use it. A product like PB blaster could help as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark 97 Cutlass Coupe Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Thanks for the photos and explanation. Obviously I have the wrong T-60. I do have an impact wrench, and a breaker bar, so once I get the right socket hopefully it will come apart. Thanks again for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark 97 Cutlass Coupe Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 I wonder why they don't just use 15mm bolts to hold on the caliper bracket, like the rear end of the car, which I just did, with no problem? Is a regular bolt available as a replacement? It would sure make removal easier, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94 olds vert Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 I dont know if anyone has replaced a T60 with a regulat bolt. I guess it could be done. Finding the right bolt that will fit and be safe maybe a bit of a challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Technically, T-60 is a T-60. A normal Torx and security Torx are the same except for the hole in the middle so the one you have should work. Maybe the reason it doesn't is because what you mentioned about being domed on top. I imagine that if it's domed, you'll probably have less contact of the splines on the bit than you would if the top is flat. Also you might take a small screwdriver and make sure there's no dirt or crud in the bolt that may be preventing the socket from going all the way in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark 97 Cutlass Coupe Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 I guess I was just wondering why they did it in the first place. A regular bolt head is always going to be easier to grab onto than a torx, especially one that is 17 years old! I'm on my way to NAPA to return it and hopefully get the right one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Probably because they need to be torqued very high to 148ft-lbs if I recall correctly. According to Wikipedia: The Torx design allows for a higher torque to be exerted than a similarly sized conventional hex socket head without damaging the head and/or the tool. The diagram on the right depicts the interaction between the male and female components of a conventional hex drive and a Torx drive. The clearance between the components is exaggerated for clarity. The diagram does not show a true Torx profile, but illustrates the general shape and geometry. I'm not a fan of Torx either (I've broken WAY more Torx bits than Hex), but they are apparently technically superior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LumiLTZ Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Could be that the Torx screw itself is full of crap/dirt, etc not letting you get a good bite on it. Ran into this on my Celebrity wagon (it uses T50 bolts rather than the W-body T60). Cleaned out the bolt heads with a small screwdriver/pick/whatnot and then was able to get the socket to latch on fully. Once you do get the socket on, it might take a good size cheater pipe to break them loose - I've had to use my breaker bar with a 3' hunk of pipe to get them broke loose before. Edit - saw that Gnat mentioned the dirt possibility. My money's on that being the issue. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhildebrand Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 The socket I use is the same that you have. A T-60 tamper resistant. Ive had the same problem you are having... If your bit keeps slipping out of the bolt, place it in with out your bar attached, and give the socket a few good taps with a hammer to get it seated in. Also, definitely use some sort of lube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intern8tion9l Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 If its the first time taking these off, def use some heat and a lot of leverage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurkey Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 You can pretty much cancel the idea of using "lube", because the problem is the bolt is seized to the bigass captured spacer, and the end of the spacer has high-friction against the bracket. You can spray "lube" onto the bolt, but since the metal-to-metal contact is air-tight, none of the "lube" is going to get between the bolt and the bigass spacer. It all drips off, and does nothing useful. Heat would probably work good, though. I just get a long-handled 1/2" ratchet, and apply my foot to the end. I figure that's why they call it "foot-pounds". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumi Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 how do i take these off if they are stripped out i went to do my rotor as well did my passenger side no problem but when i went to do my driver side (rotor has major grooves) the torx is stripped round from the previous owner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 I think you could remove it with a bolt extractor. They look something like this: http://www.irwin.com/uploads/products/large/bolt-extractors-802.jpg Although I bet just chopping its head off with an angle grinder and cutting disc would work too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumi Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 but just cutting the head off would still leave the threads on inside the bracket so i still wouldnt be able to get it out :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Yeah, but you could get Vise-Grips or something similar on what's left. The threads won't have any force on them with the head off, all you'd have to battle with is any corrosion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurkey Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) but just cutting the head off would still leave the threads on inside the bracket so i still wouldnt be able to get it out :/ Again, it's probably not the threads that are seized so much as the bigass captured spacer. Cut the head off the bolt, the bigass spacer gets heated until it can be removed, and then the rest of the bolt vice-grips out fairly easily. Or just heat the bigass spacer, and spin the whole bolt out with the vice-grips positioned on the bolt head. Any way you look at it, you're likely going to heat the bigass spacer. P. S. The Torx wrenching surface was ruined by some bonehead who either used an Allen key or Allen socket, or a cheaply-made Torx-equivalent tool. We all know those fasteners are tough to remove, so it makes sense to buy a proper tool to do it with, not some crap from Discount Dan's Junk Tools, or Harbor Fright. Edited June 25, 2014 by Schurkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumi Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 yea i tried a torch on it laid the torch against the bracket and let it sit there for a good 5 mins and tried visegrips and it didnt budge....would maybe grinding two knotches one on each side so i can get a wrench on there work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurkey Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 yea i tried a torch on it laid the torch against the bracket and let it sit there for a good 5 mins and tried visegrips and it didnt budge....would maybe grinding two knotches one on each side so i can get a wrench on there work? Define "torch". Propane? Pointless. MAPP gas, or oxy-acetylene will work much better. "I" would heat that bigass spacer until it glowed. Doesn't have to glow cherry-red, mind you, (although that might be nice!) but it better get AT LEAST yellowy-orange somewhere in the middle, and larger area is better than smaller area. It doesn't really matter how long you heat it if you're using a propane torch--propane is just not hot enough. I've never used MAPP gas, I think I own a bottle of the stuff but I've never screwed it onto the torch. When I'm heating a seized fastener, I go right to oxy-acetylene (The Blue Wrench.) When the spacer has been heated and then cooled again, see if the vice-grip will loosen the bolt head. If not, see if the vice grip can turn the bigass spacer in the same direction as loosening the bolt. Either one will be helpful. If that still doesn't work, heat the spacer again and try to turn the bolt or the spacer while it's still hot. AFTER you've seen some movement of the bolt or spacer, you could try some penetrant oil because the air-tight bond has been broken. Remember that if you use the torch again, any oil you've sprayed in there is going to catch fire. It won't burn hot enough to do any good, but it'll burn hot enough to make life miserable for your brake hoses, CV boots, or anything else flammable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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