bvc Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) 91 cutlass 3.1 primary fan was working (paperclip/diagnostic mode, hi temp, or a/c on -has new motor) secondary was not working (paperclip/diagnostic mode, or a/c on max-fan on hi -has new motor) I can jump 30 and 87 on relays and make both fans come on When primary worked and secondary did not, a test light got power from (see pic below) 30 and 85 on the primary 30 only on the secondary I'm not sure what I did, but now I only get power from 30 on both and the primary no longer works with paperclip/diagnostic mode, hi temp, or a/c on. So my question is...... What is terminal 85? Does that go to the ECM? Can that be fixed or is that part of the ECM likely fried? Or what is it exactly? How do I get at least the primary fan to come on automatically again? Thanks! Oh, I bought new relay and that didn't help. Edited June 21, 2014 by bvc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Despite a fuse I put in looking good, it wasn't. So problem mostly solved. The only problem now is the secondary fan 15amp fuse keeps blowing (primary is a 10amp fuse -weird, wonder why they are different?). I put in a 20amp and monitored it and it started melting. Bad ground? Bad relay? Other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carkhz316 Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) Alright, so I just glanced over my Chilton. Pin 85 on both relays should be Hot in Run, and obtain power from their respective fuses. If your secondary isn't receiving power and is blowing fuses, then there is a cut in the brown wire somewhere that goes from the fuse to the relay, and the hot side is shorting to ground. Edited June 22, 2014 by carkhz316 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Thank you much! I'll check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 The 15amp fuses for the secondary fan were blowing with the paperclip in the ALDL port. Before checking out the brown wire you mentioned I thought, "that's not normal use" so I tried it with the a/c on and the fuse did not blow. But when I turn a/c off, the secondary fan surges a little and blows the 15amp fuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 the fuse you're blowing doesn't directly power the fan..... it is for the relay that controls the fan. there are a couple of other items on that circuit too. EGR solenoids CCP solenoid the alternator's ignition +12V and both the low-current and high-current sides of the a/c compressor relay current through the fuse dropping enough to quit popping when the A/C is turned on...... doesn't make a lot of sense. i think you'll find whatever issue there is with the compressor coil, diode or the compressor relay. or wiring in between these items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 Thanks. The compressor is dying (leaking oil and slipping) and is being replaced this week or next. Maybe I should wait til then and see what happens. I'll mention this to my a/c guy. The egr is new and 'I think' this was happening before I replaced it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 i would pull the compressor relay and see if everything stays happy until then. that would remove all of the a/c related stuff from the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 Oh man . The 15amp IGN fuse was blown so I took it out. Both fans are working. Ran the a/c and drove to the store and back no problems. So what is it for? All those things you listed and not the fans? That would explain the SES light/egr code I'm getting with a new egr and cleaned port to intake, I'd imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 wait....... with the fuse pulled, the secondary fan still worked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 Yes. Is the 10amp IGN for both pri and sec relays? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 http://imgur.com/Vs7bqFb 10 amp IGN fuse in position F1/2 does primary(but only on the 3.1 cars, with 3.4 it gets it from the fusible element), 15 amp IGN fuse does the secondary fan and the other stuff i listed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carkhz316 Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 the fuse you're blowing doesn't directly power the fan..... it is for the relay that controls the fan. there are a couple of other items on that circuit too. EGR solenoids CCP solenoid the alternator's ignition +12V and both the low-current and high-current sides of the a/c compressor relay current through the fuse dropping enough to quit popping when the A/C is turned on...... doesn't make a lot of sense. i think you'll find whatever issue there is with the compressor coil, diode or the compressor relay. or wiring in between these items. Eh, I figured there was other stuff on that circuit. I probably shouldn't have been so presumptuous to say the brown wire for the relay coil but I was too lazy to pour over the diagrams; and agreed about the oddity of the AC compressor operations stopping the fuse from popping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) i would pull the compressor relay and see if everything stays happy until then. that would remove all of the a/c related stuff from the issue.Fuse still blows with a/c, fans, everything off, and just driving a few miles. the alternator's ignition +12Vwhat's this mean exactly? The car was given to me (recently), and when the previous owner started having problems he pointed out 1.5 years ago the alternator wasn't hooked up right. Just now remembering this because of your comment (thanks) so I looked at it. The pigtail coming off has 3 wires but only two are hooked up. The one not hooked up looks like about an 8 or 10 gauge red wire. It's just cut and taped . So, it is the right alternator and pigtail and where does the wire go? Or is it the wrong alternator and two wires are fine? Or?.... is this related? Edited June 23, 2014 by bvc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 pigtail should have 4 cavities, only two are actually used as per the factory spec, the L and F terminals. L operates the dash light and F is field. i believe F is the intended way of "turning on" the alternator, but L will work if the F circuit quits working(the 15 amp IGN fuse blowing would do that). they both look to be brown though. the S(voltage sense) and P(pulsed) teminals aren't showing as being present. if the cut wire is present in one of those, it likely isn't an issue, so long as it is protected from the elements and other stuff in the engine bay. the actual charge wire has its own ring-terminal/post, and is something like 6-8 guage. http://imgur.com/kVOJ2BP,VZBtD38 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 OK, thanks. So it's back to a possible bad wire/connection somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) there are a couple of other items on that circuit too. and both the low-current and high-current sides of the a/c compressor relay Hmmm.... I can run the a/c without this fuse. Oh, I said that already. Edited June 23, 2014 by bvc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 there are a couple of other items on that circuit too. EGR solenoids CCP solenoid the alternator's ignition +12V and both the low-current and high-current sides of the a/c compressor relay I disconnect the EGR, CCP solenoids, and compressor relay and the fuse blew. Does that isolate the alternator? Indicate a ground issue? Since the a/c and secondary fan runs without the fuse......what does one do with that craziness? It's looking like someone's been messing around with things, I guess, which is not surprising based on a few things I have found. Which means it could be anything. Would a scan be revealing? I don't have one, but if it would help, I'd rather pay for a good diagnosis than tare harnesses apart trying to trace the unknown. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 i'd pull the alternator plug as well to try and determine between a harness or alt issue. you can run with minimal electrical loads on a fully charged battery for probably an hour before it becomes an issue. if you have a battery charger than can supply a few amps, you can boost that time even longer. the a/c and fan running without the fuse indicates they're getting current elsewhere, which is already strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 pigtail should have 4 cavities, only two are actually used as per the factory spec, the L and F terminals. L operates the dash light and F is field. i believe F is the intended way of "turning on" the alternator, but L will work if the F circuit quits working(the 15 amp IGN fuse blowing would do that). they both look to be brown though. the S(voltage sense) and P(pulsed) teminals aren't showing as being present. if the cut wire is present in one of those, it likely isn't an issue, so long as it is protected from the elements and other stuff in the engine bay. the actual charge wire has its own ring-terminal/post, and is something like 6-8 guage. http://imgur.com/kVOJ2BP,VZBtD38 Disconnected everything and the fuse was fine. Turned off the car, plugged in the alternator, started the car and the fuse blew immediately. Yes, there are 4 wires on the plug.2 brown 1 gray 1 red Unwrapped the tape further than last night to find 2 brown spliced into 1 brown gray spliced into other brown guessing this is the prob. If it's brown on brown, how do I know which one goes to which? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 yeah, the diagrams should help quite a bit if you can see the lettering on the alt plug. somebody really screwed that up. if i remember correctly, providing a more or less unlimited current source to the L terminal(which if both browns were spliced together, it looks that way), then the regulator will suffer damage. it's supposed to have the current limited via a bulb or a resistor, here the only thing limiting it is the 15 amp fuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Yes I can see the lettering on the alt plug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) diagrams aren't telling me anything though. Sorry, it's greek to me. How do they tell me which is L and F on the other side of the cut harness? ok wait...... Edited June 24, 2014 by bvc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 a multimeter set to measure resistance could be used once the splices are undone. connect a probe to one of the brown wires and the other probe to the 15 amp IGN slot with the fuse out. you should get a near 0 ohm reading on one side of the fuse slot and infinite reading on the other side. if you don't see that with the first brown wire, check the second. one of them should show infinite resistance on both. if both show the same results, something else is screwed up down the line as well. the one that shows infinite on one side and near-0 on the other is the F wire. the other brown wire would be the L. the other two, i would isolate from everything else and forget they exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted June 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) Can I assume the 2 brown from the plug are correctly spliced to F, since it's been charging? If so, prob solved. Edited June 24, 2014 by bvc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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