Throttle Body AC Pass Through

[Michael Savage]

Tranny isn't going bad anytime soon, XADO stopped the leak a year ago and it's been cracked and running fine since 08.

 

 

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[Booba]

[Crazy K]

Interdasting thread with a few interesting, but not well thought out points. I could see a 3100 getting better gas mileage with higher compression, or just a supper lean tune... But maybe his mom just borrows the car and puts gas in when he's playing WOW?

[Michael Savage]

Once again Didn't increase the engine compression. Also my mother lives 2 hours away and has Cancer 6th time now I think. She doesn't get out much by her self. So that's out of the question. Engine wise, from the pistons and cam shafts up there was 8months of tweaking each part to perfection standards.

 

 

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[Michael Savage]

Actually if anything I lowered the compression when I did stuff to the heads. Also using dish top pistons instead of knotched.

 

 

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[Galaxie500XL]

You'll have to excuse our skepticism here, Michael. Your reported experiences, up to 40 MPG, with better acceleration than even L67 swapped W's with a 3100, are so far outside of the experience base of the group, there are bound to be questions.

 

I have a few myself, but since I'm running late for work, they'll have to wait until later.

 

Oh, and BTW, there are NO functional differences between the stock 60* coils, and those used on an L67.

[Michael Savage]

Actually the L67 Blue tab ACDelco the D576 coils are rated 40,000v same as MSD coils.

 

The D555 coils that come stock on the Non SC 3800, 3400, and 3100 are rated between 15,000-25,000v

 

So yes there is a difference in voltage in those. So twice the voltage should be more functional.

 

 

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[Michael Savage]

Yes I know mine is different and I Understand the skepticism. But a 3100 is a 3400 so anything a 3400 is capable of the 3100 is 3100 just has more metal, just remove it and you have a 3400 other than the 30hp/torque difference with the block bore/stroke.

 

Let's see i worked on each part for at least a month measuring each part and doing tests. My dad owns and runs a shop and raced for about 20 years. He showed me what to change and told me to cubic inches that could perform best. Also the thing we did different, we modified for torque.

 

 

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[94 olds vert]

I have read this thread three times and cant understand the point or reaoning brought forth in this discussion. We are a long way off from cooling the TB with an AC line. So for that reason I say IB4TL. I can see people getting butt hurt over this thread.

[Michael Savage]

Very true, I'm just looking for more ideas to get my 3100 going even better. But the AC throttle body cooler everyone trailed off asking about my engine. And misreading information. Anyways so the AC Throttle Body Cooler could work but you would need to add a secondary hotwired compressor.

 

 

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[Booba]

On top of that, you'd need to reinforce the tubing in the throttle body, find somewhere to mount the compressor, control the compressor, etc. Not to mention the rest of the system, the dryer, evaporator, condenser, the list goes on. You also have to remember that an A\C compressor takes engine horsepower to work, so even if you did somehow get past all the roadblocks in the installation, you'd probably have the same power you were putting out before, at best. Plus, if you are at a stop and you floor it with the A\C compressor going the engine would fall flat on it's face. That's why the stock PCM turns off the compressor at WOT. The ONLY way I can see this possible is in a setup like I mentioned earlier, and intercooler type setup installed on a L67 or L32 supercharged engine.

[Hairdo12]

Running the ac through the throttle body to create more power is a violation of the first law of thermodynamics. The motor needs to use power to run the ac compressor, when energy changes forms energy is lost. This is no different than dummies claiming HO generators running off the alternator produce more power at the crank. Energy can only change forms, it cannot be created. In this case all energy starts from energy stored in the gasoline.

[Michael Savage]

Well here's a question to that theory.

 

If output is higher than input wouldn't that make it produce more power than the loss equivalents?

 

Such as a Wrench vs a Ratchet for example. Takes more force to turn a Wrench than a Ratchet.

 

So the Wrench according to that is just as efficient to use as the Ratchet. Even though the arm using the Wrench will get tired of turning than the one turning the Ratchet.

 

 

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[Michael Savage]

Sooner than.

 

 

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[Michael Savage]

A HHO Generator works the same way as a Supercharger.

 

Takes input to make output. So if you bash a HHO Generator you should be bashing Turbo and Superchargers that work the same way. Takes voltage to make the HHO generator produce high efficiency fuel. Where as a Supercharger takes Gas to run it by turning the Belt.

 

Go about it any way you want but with technology currently available to the public at least. If you want more power or fuel efficiency you will have to provide some kind of exchange for the higher output.

 

On a side note my uncle manufactures HHO Generators and they do work depending on the Altenator you may or may not need a stronger one. He also built a full HHO engine that gets 80mpg in his Tahoe, but he is compressing the HHO so he is driving a bomb.

 

 

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[Booba]

Not even getting into the HHO conversation, but your logic in the wrench vs. ratchet is flawed. A wrench is simply applying torque to the fastener (nut\bolt\etc.), a Ratchet has more joints and moving parts, so it takes more torque to turn the same fastener. That is why breaker bars exist, less moving parts, less for the torque you are providing to do.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Booba

[Michael Savage]

Also true, but saying hypothetically if you only had a wrench or a ratchet and either could fit anywhere easily, which one would work better for any job if clearance wasn't an issue?

 

 

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[Hairdo12]

Actually on second thought I made a mistake, this idea would function on the same theory as a belt driven super charger. To create more power you need more fuel and oxygen charge. Unfortunately the inefficiency of the ac compressor is much too large to be compensated by any oxygen fuel charge gains. Supercharges have come a long way to improve efficiencies.

 

Your statement about output being higher than input is never possible, that would be perpetual motion. A ratchet and wrench are both subjected to length of the handle. If both have a 1 foot handle and you apply 10 lb of pressure, you create 10lbs ft of torque. Increase the handle to 2 ft and apply the same 10 lbs of pressure and you create 20lbs ft of torque. You're not creating more power here because now you're trading mechanical motion to create more torque. A 2ft handle, the end of that handle has to travel much further than the 1 ft handle to make one full turn. Just like your transmission, the motor doesn't create more house power in 1st gear vs 2nd, the torque at the wheels is changed wither same power input. A ratchet is subjected to losses due to the extra mechanical portions that could flex or cause friction causing a loss in power.

[Booba]

Also true, but saying hypothetically if you only had a wrench or a ratchet and either could fit anywhere easily, which one would work better for any job if clearance wasn't an issue?

 

 

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The wrench, because there are less moving parts.

[Hairdo12]

http://chemistry.osu.edu/~woodward/ch121/ch5_law.htm

 

that is why Hho generators are bullshit. You're using gasoline (chemical energy), turning it into mechanical energy, then turning that into electrical energy. Each time energy changes forms, energy is lost to friction and heat. Further take that electrical energy to convert water to browns gas and you lose more energy... You end up spending 10 joules of energy to create 0.4 joules of browns gas.

[Michael Savage]

Well true and true. But any ways so an extra air compressor is to inefficient and would pretty much balance out the gains to 0 or less. Also higher output than input is possible and has been used. Like HHO generators for example. If you get a good one. You can have the fuel output it produces outweigh the 12v that is required to run it. HHO is a better burning and cleaner fuel than Gas so say you are running 1 parts air to 50/50 HHO and Gas. You will be running over 50% more efficient using 50% less gas, and having 400% better combustion since HHO is 4 times more combustible than Gas. So depending on how you apply it.

 

Also HHO isn't BS seeing as you'll be making all but the initial combustion. The rest of the time you'll be using 50% HHO to make HHO. So technically it's not BS if you run it properly and don't get a cheap one. Get one that can replace 50% or higher of the Gas being used. Those are the ones that actually work efficiently. Now just using a cheap small one with the low output rating like you're describing yes it is counter productive.

 

 

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[Michael Savage]

I've actually looked at converting my fuel system to pure HHO, but it's to much of a headache to convert.

 

 

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[RobertISaar]

world's energy problem: solved.

[Hairdo12]

You're joking right? Please say you are. You need to understand the law of physics here about energy changing forms. You're not even measuring the electric power correctly, you need watts (current and voltage). Let's assume your HHO generator can yield an extra 20% of stored energy from the water, making a 120% efficiency..... Now let's see how you create that electrical energy.... Your gasoline, let's assume a very efficient energy transfer of 30% to mechanical motion, there is a 70% loss to heat and friction, then another generous 30% of mechanical motion to electric conversion... So that is 30% of 30%, thus 9% of your gasoline input is turned to electric power. If you input 60 watts of electric power into your HHO generator to yield 72 watts of output, it cost you 606watts of gasoline input. And that is assuming an unrealistic perfect efficiency within the HHO generator.

 

Now to convert your fueling system over to total HHO, your HHO generator would at absolutely best be able to supply enough energy to run its self and nothing left to run the motor.

 

you need to research that 1st law of thermodynamic and at the very least do a little research on perpetual motion.

[RobertISaar]

but the internet told me putting water in a bucket with wires makes pixie dust?