PTAaron Posted March 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Compression test came back with 5 cylinders at 120-125 and one at 110 - test was done with the engine cold, throttle body open. Did not want to run the engine up to running temp then have to deal with hot parts when disassembling. I'm buying the full head gasket set and head bolts - in hopes that I won't need the head gasket or bolts if it is just the intake gasket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Update - yeah we're working slow... With the lower intake removed - it appears the gasket failure occurred there on the rear of the engine. We (my father in-law and I) both agree that the gasket's appearance combined with compression test results make it appear that the head gasket may be intact. There is some seriously nasty sludge all over the inside surfaces of the rocker covers and the intake manifold - so I will be filling the car up with "cheap oil" and running it a little bit, then immediately doing another oil change once we get it all back together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurkey Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 Verify that the PCV system is working, too. If it is, that will help clean-up the sludge. You'll want to get--and keep--the engine at full operating temperature for awhile. 110--125 psi compression is pretty low. Sure your gauge is accurate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) Verify that the PCV system is working, too. If it is, that will help clean-up the sludge. You'll want to get--and keep--the engine at full operating temperature for awhile. 110--125 psi compression is pretty low. Sure your gauge is accurate? Engine wasn't warm for the test - that may be part of it. Did one cylinder with the throttle closed and hit 145... Gauge is accurate to the best of my knowledge - readings were within spec on other cars I've used it on in the past. I'll make sure the PCV valve is good - is there anything else to do to verify the system is working well? Edited March 16, 2014 by PTAaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurkey Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 Engine wasn't warm for the test - that may be part of it. Did one cylinder with the throttle closed and hit 145...Gauge is accurate to the best of my knowledge - readings were within spec on other cars I've used it on in the past. Engine warm...engine cold...I don't think it makes all that much difference. Strange that you get higher numbers with the throttle closed. Altitude and cranking speed make a big difference. Low altitude, high cranking speed make for higher cylinder pressure. Test your gauge by plugging it into a shop compressed air source, then compare your gauge to the gauge on the pressure regulator. You may or may not need to make an adapter to provide shop air pressure into your gauge. If you're lucky, the quick-disconnect on your compression tester is a match for the quick-coupler on the shop air supply. I'll make sure the PCV valve is good - is there anything else to do to verify the system is working well? Assure that there's mild vacuum at the fresh-air intake to the crankcase at idle. It's usually in or near the air cleaner or down-stream of the air cleaner so that filtered air is drawn into the crankcase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 Thanks for the tips. Gauge has a female fitting that clips into the hose - I can put together a double male adapter from extra fittings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Update for today: After a long day of one thing after another going wrong - the engine is back together with new intake gaskets, pcv valve and a new temperature sender. Coolant system is filled and mostly bled, filled with temporary oil... Starts and idles perfectly smoothly. Drives slowly under its own power easily. Accelerates slowly no problem. Pushing the throttle quickly/hard makes it bog down badly. Revving at idle causes a series of backfires after I let off the gas as the car revs down. There do not appear to be any external coolant leaks at this time. After heating up the engine I was able to get coolant running out of the bleeders without air bubbles - but I need to top off the radiator again once it cools down. So that's where we stand... still don't know if I fixed the problem or not I did find pictures of a failed lower intake gasket - and they looked exactly like my lower intake gasket did. So that made me feel more confident that we did the right thing vs a full head gasket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 you are running on new oil/filter, right? coolant+oil is absolute crap for lubrication, if you don't spin/wear out a main bearing, you can end up with a camshaft that snaps in half. EDIT: i'm blind. new oil was mentioned. is there a new filter? the mayonaise/choclate milk that the oil+coolant mixture turns into will plug a filter with slime quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaxie500XL Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 True about the slime...I'd do another oil and filter change within the next day or so, assuming everything else looks good...and if it still looks good in a week or so, I'd do yet another, just to help get that crap out of the engine. you are running on new oil/filter, right? coolant+oil is absolute crap for lubrication, if you don't spin/wear out a main bearing, you can end up with a camshaft that snaps in half. EDIT: i'm blind. new oil was mentioned. is there a new filter? the mayonaise/choclate milk that the oil+coolant mixture turns into will plug a filter with slime quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 you are running on new oil/filter, right? coolant+oil is absolute crap for lubrication, if you don't spin/wear out a main bearing, you can end up with a camshaft that snaps in half. EDIT: i'm blind. new oil was mentioned. is there a new filter? the mayonaise/choclate milk that the oil+coolant mixture turns into will plug a filter with slime quick. Yes, filter was also replaced at the same time - good eye. I checked the oil after letting it run for about 15 minutes and did a short drive up/down the street and it looked like an extremely diluted version of the slime I had before - which made sense. I plan to run the car through a few more heat/cool cycles, then run some engine flush crap through it and promptly do another oil change before I take the car anywhere on the road. True about the slime...I'd do another oil and filter change within the next day or so, assuming everything else looks good...and if it still looks good in a week or so, I'd do yet another, just to help get that crap out of the engine. Thanks, will do. I'm not sure if the bogging down with harder acceleration/popping when engine revs down after giving it some gas at idle could be related to the "slime" or if I need to look at something else. I'm 99% sure the plugs are wired correctly because I had the diagram sitting on the engine block when I attached the wires. I also had a stain on the driveway from my exhaust after the car sat and idled - I'm assuming that is more slime related garbage. We had a scare after putting it back together... we hooked up a cooling system pressure tester, pumped it up, and watched the needle slowly pulse down about halfway before sitting steady. We both just kept staring at the engine and doing the test over and over - before my father in-law realized there was a leak in the hose on the tester! As he moved, it would leak out - when he held still it held pressure... I was already trying to figure out a good cliff to roll the car off of when he realized that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imp558 Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 Did you replace the spark plugs? Vacuum leak could account for that behavior too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 Did you replace the spark plugs? Vacuum leak could account for that behavior too. I did not replace the plugs, current plugs have about 7 months on them so I didn't think about it. I meant to re-gap them all before we put the engine back together and I forgot. DOH! I'll double check the vacuum lines. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 Spent another 20-30 minutes bleeding the coolant system last night - I realized I had forgotten to turn on the heat last time. Turns out there was quite a bit more air in the system. Idles smoothly still, revving it did not cause any popping as it revved down last night... odd. I topped off the coolant again last night after bleeding it, and I will try bleeding it some more tonight - then I will be running the engine flush through and changing the oil again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Alright... well I'm screwed now... Took the car out for a drive to the corner store to see how well it was running after doing the second oil change. Drove it around the neighborhood for a full lap first - felt OK, but was idling a little more roughly than it was when we bled it the other night. Pulling out of the sub slowly it was fine, accelerating at part throttle felt OK but under powered, then all of a sudden NOTHING. Engine was still running, just NO power. I let off the gas and kept it around 2000 RPM and made it into the parking lot of the store, got what I needed and headed home - attempted accelerating again - nothing, but it runs great if I keep it at around 20 mph. Popped the hood - coolant overflow is bubbling air. Opened the bleeder valve - massive rush of air. So the head gasket is ALSO blown... Am I screwed now as far as the lower intake gasket is concerned? Can it be re-used, or am I out another pile of money to get the LIM gasket set again? This REALLY sucks - we should have just done the headgasket since we were so close last weekend. I'm so pissed off right now, I can't even put it into words!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_e777 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) Walk away from it, open beer. The LIM gaskets are probably OK to reuse, the valley RTV seals will need redone unless you have actual end seals(no idea where to find them as I want a pair too) When you get your heads off and cleaned up stick a straight edge on the piston side, if you can see a bit of light between your straight edge and head then the head will need machining IDEALLY. How ever my head gaskets claimed they were designed to cope with slightly uneven heads. I used Felpro from Autozone. If removing exhaust manifold you WILL need new exhaust manifold gaskets as they are not reusable. UIM or plenum gaskets as well as the other top engine gaskets can be reused so long as they are not cracked or damaged. After this job has been completed and a successful test drive consisting of getting the engine to op temp. Drop a half can of Seafoam into the oil before you change it to remove any moisture and build up you might have encountered. Also do not be intimidated by the additional torque degrees for the head bolts, scribe a line jutting out away from a single point on the bolt, then do it again at the next point. Each time you turn the bolt in a way that the first point lines up to the second line that equals 60 degrees. Maybe there is a video on youtube or another member that has a better way of explaining it then me, I can show you better than tell you. Edited March 22, 2014 by rich_e777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Fury Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Any LIM gasket kit I've gotten comes with those valley seals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) Walk away from it, open beer. The LIM gaskets are probably OK to reuse, the valley RTV seals will need redone unless you have actual end seals(no idea where to find them as I want a pair too) When you get your heads off and cleaned up stick a straight edge on the piston side, if you can see a bit of light between your straight edge and head then the head will need machining IDEALLY. How ever my head gaskets claimed they were designed to cope with slightly uneven heads. I used Felpro from Autozone. If removing exhaust manifold you WILL need new exhaust manifold gaskets as they are not reusable. UIM or plenum gaskets as well as the other top engine gaskets can be reused so long as they are not cracked or damaged. After this job has been completed and a successful test drive consisting of getting the engine to op temp. Drop a half can of Seafoam into the oil before you change it to remove any moisture and build up you might have encountered. Also do not be intimidated by the additional torque degrees for the head bolts, scribe a line jutting out away from a single point on the bolt, then do it again at the next point. Each time you turn the bolt in a way that the first point lines up to the second line that equals 60 degrees. Maybe there is a video on youtube or another member that has a better way of explaining it then me, I can show you better than tell you. Walked away... Talked with the wife and decided to buy a new car... even came up with a price range and started searching online... then after an hour I decided I'll go ahead and waste another weekend working on it. I can't let this car beat me! Thanks for the tips. I already have the exhaust and head gaskets - I just need head bolts since I returned the set I bought last weekend. Thanks for the tips! Any LIM gasket kit I've gotten comes with those valley seals No such luck here - the fel pro set I got came with a tube of RTV black for the area between the heads. Edited March 22, 2014 by PTAaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Is it ridiculous that I'm almost more angry that I've wasted 4 quarts of good oil and a filter now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 i seem to remember the valley seals being junk(OEM or not), even new. i would just RTV it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Progressing much faster this weekend... Trying to get the exhaust manifolds loose right now - taking a food break while the PB Blaster works for a bit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 ...and an hour later I'm stuck in the same spot... can't get the AC compressor bracket/passenger side engine strut thing off of the engine. The only remaining bolt I can see is the Torx headed bolt from the top, but so far I can't get that to turn and I've ruined my T50 bit attempting to turn it - it has a nice spiral shape to it now. Needless to say - I can't get to the exhaust manifold bolts without removing that because of the heat shield. I'm kind of dead in the water right now on the front until my wife gets home so I can drive to the store for a new T50, going to work on the back side for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 For anyone following along... A stronger bit and a blow torch got the torx head out. Discovered 2 broken exhaust bolts in the front and 1 in the back, so that's fun. Heads came off without any additional problems... and the gaskets looked JUST FINE! There were a couple of bolts that were very loose coming out, and one bolt that broke an extension... so I don't know what to make of that. I was really hoping to find a badly blown out gasket Heads were not warped - tested with a straight edge and a light looking for gaps. Scraped the surfaces, ready to install again tomorrow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurkey Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 For anyone following along...A stronger bit and a blow torch got the torx head out. Discovered 2 broken exhaust bolts in the front and 1 in the back, so that's fun. Heads came off without any additional problems... and the gaskets looked JUST FINE! There were a couple of bolts that were very loose coming out, and one bolt that broke an extension... so I don't know what to make of that. I was really hoping to find a badly blown out gasket Heads were not warped - tested with a straight edge and a light looking for gaps. Scraped the surfaces, ready to install again tomorrow.... Compression test may or may not reveal the problem cylinder. Head gasket leakage has the same symptoms as a cracked casting. Have you ruled-out a failed intake gasket? Even if the head gasket has failed, that's unlikely to be the ONLY problem. Best to have the head checked for flatness especially around the area where the gasket failure occurred, and check the block for flatness, too. While you have the heads off, you may want to consider a valve job at the same time. I don't know about 3.1L, but the 3.4L dual cam exhaust valves are in tough shape by 150K miles, or even less. So naturally you've checked for cracked castings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTAaron Posted March 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 So naturally you've checked for cracked castings? Yessir - my father in-law and I both went over every inch of each head with a light looking for anything that didn't look "right". Will be going over everything again tomorrow before putting anything back together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55trucker Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 (edited) [quote Heads ere not warped - tested with a straight edge and a light looking for gaps. Scraped the surfaces, ready to install again tomorrow.... Do yourself a favour, you've come this far, take them into a machine shop, spend a few dollars & have a machinist check the surfaces, don't take anything for granted. Also take a close look down each cylinder with the piston at bottom and look closely for a possible crack in any of the cylinder walls going into a water gallery. Don't assume anything, and don't rush. Edited March 23, 2014 by 55trucker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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