Still no heat - engine temp out of control... (fixed)

[PTAaron]

Last night we replaced my water pump and thermostat on my cutlass supreme (3.1) to try to address the issue that cropped up last week with major overheating on the ride home from work ...

A test run last night showed coolant was flowing nicely, thermostat was opening and the bleeder valve at the thermostat was free of air. The other bleeder valve is broken, so that can't be checked.

 

Drove to a family function today and we again had no heat and the temp needle kept shooting between 180 and maxed out the whole trip. As it dropped down the heat would function briefly, then back to cold air.

I stopped to check things out and the overflow tank was completely full and bubbling...

 

What do I check next??

Edited April 1, 2014 by PTAaron

[tornado_735]

It's imperative that you get that other bleeder valve open.

 

You have air trapped in the system still.

 

Sometimes, the bleeder valves screw into a larger fitting that can be removed. Hopefully, this is the case with yours.

[RobertISaar]

the 180ish was likely accurate, but it sounds like the air pockets are causing it to read high.

 

bubbling overflow sounds bad though.... that could be compressed air/fuel getting sent into the cooling system via a blown headgasket.

[PTAaron]

I'll try to get that other valve open...

Had to drive home from the family function just now - and it was not a fun experience with the temp rising and falling like crazy.

 

When I got the car into the garage I opened the bleeder valve that does function properly and was treated to just the sound of rushing air coming out. Once the engine cools I will check if the fitting the bleeder screws into unscrews from something.

[94 olds vert]

Dont bother with the other bleeder its more trouble than its worth. I made it worse when mine broke.

[PTAaron]

Okay - a 10mm socket will remove the plug that the pump side bleeder is on, so I did that. Engine was cooler, so I opened the radiator cap and checked that it was filled to the bottom of the filler neck... started up the engine and got a GEYSER of pure steam and hot air blowing up from the pump side bleeder. I let it run for about 30 seconds with no sign of liquid coming out behind it (aside from the initial burst that ended up all over me) so I shut the engine down and left the port open for things to cool down some more.

[PTAaron]

Looks like I'll be waiting until tomorrow to properly bleed this - without the actual bleeder valve it is a bit dangerous opening the port up while the engine is still warm from the drive home, going to need to come up with a better solution so I don't keep getting covered in coolant spray when it is open. Glad I remembered my safety glasses.

[carkhz316]

the 180ish was likely accurate, but it sounds like the air pockets are causing it to read high.

 

bubbling overflow sounds bad though.... that could be compressed air/fuel getting sent into the cooling system via a blown headgasket.

^This. I've encountered this a few times recently on friends/ families cars. They aren't that difficult to do cooling system work. You fill them back up and they are fine for good, or for a few hours/ days until they "burp," Then you typically get that one overheat condition when the coolant level drops in-lieu of the the burp. Top it off and all is well. I doubt getting the other bleeder screw open is going to solve it so I'm going to second Robert in that you may have HG problems.

Edited March 10, 2014 by carkhz316

[PTAaron]

Guess a compression test is in order...

[PTAaron]

Update: Planned to replace coolant temp sensor, but Autozone locked their doors 5 minutes early so I couldn't get in to pick up the part I had pre-paid for...

 

I spent 30 minutes bleeding the system with the plug on the pump side (where the bleeder is broken) loosened up enough that air/coolant could come through the threads and the thermostat bleeder open. Closed the thermostat side once a steady coolant stream was coming out, and closed up the pump side when I had a good stream of coolant without bubbles coming through. Checked inside the car - no heat.

Cracked the pump side bleeder again and immediately got air bubbles coming out - let it sit open until it was mostly coolant and closed it. Checked in the car - slight heat.

Cracked it again - more air... stopped when there were minimal bubbles - HOT heat in the car

Came back out and cracked the pump side again - a couple of bubbles and a trickle of coolant making it out. Let it sit for another 5 minutes with a couple of bubbles coming out before shutting the engine down. Total of about 30 minutes of bleeding air to get to that point. The "low coolant" light is on now - so I'll be adding more to the radiator tomorrow once it is cool again. How do I make sure I don't get air in there again when I do that? Apparently I'm retarded when it comes to adding coolant to this dang car.

[RobertISaar]

don't even open the system until it is near air temp, then open radiator cap, fill it reasonably high, then go squeeze the upper radiator hose slowly a few times, see if the level drops after doing that, add more 50/50 mixture if necessary. then go squeeze the hose, make sure no air is trapped in it without shooting coolant out of the cap neck. now fill it completely to the top where putting the cap on risks spilling coolant.

 

at that point, depending how your reservoir looks, you'll probably be done. if the reservoir is low, then go add coolant there until you're up to the cold fill line.

 

the little bit of air that might be trapped at the top of the radiator in the space that the cap exists in will eventually be pushed out into the reservoir, probably on the first or second heating cycle, then the radiator will draw coolant back in to replace it as the coolant cools down and creates a vacuum inside the radiator(this is why the cap seal is very important otherwise it can draw air). reservoir level may drop a little after that happens, but it probably won't even be measurable. if so, add a little coolant to bring it back up to the mark.

 

at this point, you should no longer see any more coolant loss(or change in level, really, except for temperature's effect on level in the reservoir). if you do, you're either leaking it(internally or externally) or burning it. neither are good situations to be in.

[PTAaron]

don't even open the system until it is near air temp, then open radiator cap, fill it reasonably high, then go squeeze the upper radiator hose slowly a few times, see if the level drops after doing that, add more 50/50 mixture if necessary. then go squeeze the hose, make sure no air is trapped in it without shooting coolant out of the cap neck. now fill it completely to the top where putting the cap on risks spilling coolant.

 

at that point, depending how your reservoir looks, you'll probably be done. if the reservoir is low, then go add coolant there until you're up to the cold fill line.

 

the little bit of air that might be trapped at the top of the radiator in the space that the cap exists in will eventually be pushed out into the reservoir, probably on the first or second heating cycle, then the radiator will draw coolant back in to replace it as the coolant cools down and creates a vacuum inside the radiator(this is why the cap seal is very important otherwise it can draw air). reservoir level may drop a little after that happens, but it probably won't even be measurable. if so, add a little coolant to bring it back up to the mark.

 

at this point, you should no longer see any more coolant loss(or change in level, really, except for temperature's effect on level in the reservoir). if you do, you're either leaking it(internally or externally) or burning it. neither are good situations to be in.

 

Thanks!

 

I'm hoping replacing the coolant temp sensor is going to bring my idle back to normal (other thread), and the car will be drivable again very soon.

I will be doing an oil change before driving it - seems like a smart thing to do if it really got as hot as the gauge was indicating.

If problems remain - then compression test time - and probably some sobbing while sitting in the corner.

[Schurkey]

The other bleeder valve is broken, so that can't be checked...

...the temp needle kept shooting between 180 and maxed out the whole trip...

 

What do I check next??

Inspect your checking account for enough money to replace the engine and the broken bleeder valve.

[PTAaron]

Inspect your checking account for enough money to replace the engine and the broken bleeder valve.

 

Figured out a workaround for the bleeder - backing out the plug that it screws into to allow air to escape through the threads. Takes a lot longer, but gets the job done.

If the engine is toast - I don't see it being replaced on a car that was free, I may have to suck it up and actually spend money to buy a car

[Galaxie500XL]

Could be a blown head gasket...how does the oil look?

[GnatGoSplat]

Could certainly be head gasket problems.

 

Although these cars are difficult to bleed properly so I wouldn't rule that out either. I've found what seems to work very well, is to use a vacuum pump on the bleeders to suck out the air (I use a Mity-Vac hand pump). I do this with the car NOT running. Last time I did this, I think it did the trick without any additional bleeding necessary.

 

Before trying the vacuum pump idea, I had another method that worked well, but was very time consuming. This is what I used to do:

1. With car off, remove cap from radiator.

2. Open the bleeder.

3. Squeeze upper radiator hose (do not release).

4. Tighten bleeder.

5. Release hose.

6. Observe coolant level drop in radiator.

7. Top off radiator as necessary.

8. Repeat steps 2-7 until you no longer see coolant level drop in step 6.

 

It was painful, slow, annoying, and back-breaking, but did the job without special tools (though vacuum pump method is WAY easier).

 

After engine-off bleed of either procedure, I'd run the engine up to temperature, loosen bleeder, and make sure it squirts a steady stream with no bubbles.

 

At least with the LQ1, I could never get the cooling system fully and properly bled using the engine-running bleed procedure in the service manual without first using one of my engine-off bleed procedures.

[Galaxie500XL]

I've done the same thing using the squeeze method, but instead of opening and closing the bleeder, I used my thumb to open and close it until I got close, then put the bleed screw back in place for the last few cycles.

[GnatGoSplat]

Did you have to block off the little hole on the side of the bleeder to use your thumb? Or is it small enough you didn't need to?

[PTAaron]

Alright... I finally had the time to swap the coolant temp sensor, and while taking off the airbox I noticed some chocolate milk-like sludge coming out of the throttle body that wasn't there last weekend when I swapped in the new water pump.

I checked the oil - which had been fine after the latest over heating incident - and found that it too looked like chocolate milk.

I jacked up the car and opened the drain plug - chocolate milk and coolant came running out. :damnit1:

 

So - I'm guessing this means my headgasket is toast? :bang:

 

Am I correct in thinking a compression test will help me identify which side is blown?

 

Is this a repair I can do myself? I've never attempted a headgasket replacement before, I've swapped auto trans to manual trans, and done complete engine swaps before on my Merkurs - but headgasket replacement hasn't come up.

 

I think I want to puke now...

[PTAaron]

Could be a blown head gasket...how does the oil look?

 

Looked fine until today...

[RobertISaar]

if you're pulling one head, you would be well ahead to pull the other.

[Schurkey]

Compression test may or may not reveal the problem cylinder.

 

Head gasket leakage has the same symptoms as a cracked casting. Have you ruled-out a failed intake gasket?

 

Even if the head gasket has failed, that's unlikely to be the ONLY problem. Best to have the head checked for flatness especially around the area where the gasket failure occurred, and check the block for flatness, too.

 

While you have the heads off, you may want to consider a valve job at the same time. I don't know about 3.1L, but the 3.4L dual cam exhaust valves are in tough shape by 150K miles, or even less.

[PTAaron]

if you're pulling one head, you would be well ahead to pull the other.

You're right of course. Would be silly not to do it all while it is apart.

 

Compression test may or may not reveal the problem cylinder.

 

Head gasket leakage has the same symptoms as a cracked casting. Have you ruled-out a failed intake gasket?

 

Even if the head gasket has failed, that's unlikely to be the ONLY problem. Best to have the head checked for flatness especially around the area where the gasket failure occurred, and check the block for flatness, too.

 

While you have the heads off, you may want to consider a valve job at the same time. I don't know about 3.1L, but the 3.4L dual cam exhaust valves are in tough shape by 150K miles, or even less.

How do I rule out the intake gasket? I've been searching for that info online here for a bit and I'm having no luck - I may be searching improperly though.

Unfortunately I don't have the spare cash to do anything with valves while it is apart. If the heads need to be machined that may be all that is do-able right now.

[PTAaron]

Plan right now looks like this:

Wake up bright and early and do compression/leakdown tests... then strip the engine down until I can look at the lower intake gaskets - then see where we stand. Could be an $80 (intake gasket kit) weekend or a $150 (head gasket kit and bolts) weekend - hoping for the $80 option!

[Galaxie500XL]

Gnat, I remove the little plug entirely, and use my thumb covering the entire threaded hole...it's worked for me a couple of times.

Did you have to block off the little hole on the side of the bleeder to use your thumb? Or is it small enough you didn't need to?