another starting problem (intermittent no start) 1992 Lumina

[Chris2012]

2 out of 3 times lately car won't turn over, but you hear a grinding sort of noise:

 

rrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

then it actually starts on the 3rd or 4th attempt.

 

methinks a starter problem. halp.

 

numerous problems have materialized since replacing ecm. after this one gets fixed, in those immortal words - "I'll be back!"

 

the Luminater

[Schurkey]

Cranks but won't start; or

Won't crank?

 

Your description makes it sound like the engine doesn't crank, but the starter makes noise.

 

First Guess: Defective starter drive. Most folks would install a different starter motor; but the drive can be replaced separately if you cared.

[Chris2012]

Cranks but won't start; or

Won't crank?

 

Your description makes it sound like the engine doesn't crank, but the starter makes noise.

 

First Guess: Defective starter drive. Most folks would install a different starter motor; but the drive can be replaced separately if you cared.

 

Yes sorry for the vagueries. Won't crank, but essentially makes a whirring sound.

 

Assuming I keep the car for more then a few days, I'd like to do that. I assume Advance AZ, etc. Have the part ...

 

Also ... darkish tranny flluid, engine ot tranny needs new mounts (sound/feels like), still have to replace rear plugs, hopefully that's the cause of the msiing/&ucking.

[Schurkey]

Starters are available at every parts store in North America. Some folks like "New" starters, most of 'em come from China so they're not for me. I'd install a starter intended for a newer 3.1, (I'm not sure when the design changed--let's say 2000) they're smaller and lighter (but more expensive) That's what I've done on my 3.4s. The old starter is hard to remove on those, but the smaller replacement is an easy installation.

 

Trans fluid and filter change is pretty easy. Drop pan, remove filter. Install new filter, install pan, install 4 quarts of fluid. At that point, you can start the engine, verify the fluid level, and pretty much call it a done deal, OR you can flush the rest of the old fluid. I would flush, but it's more labor and more fluid.

 

Check the plug wires while you have the plugs out. Look at insulation, test resistance.

[Garrett Powered]

they started making the small starters around 94, but sometimes you will order one from rockauto and it's still the big one. the higher Kw rated ones do not mean it's gear reduction. I happened to choose a newer big starter by accident because I didn't know they still used those on some cars.

[Chris2012]

Starters are available at every parts store in North America. Some folks like "New" starters, most of 'em come from China so they're not for me. I'd install a starter intended for a newer 3.1, (I'm not sure when the design changed--let's say 2000) they're smaller and lighter (but more expensive) That's what I've done on my 3.4s. The old starter is hard to remove on those, but the smaller replacement is an easy installation.

 

Trans fluid and filter change is pretty easy. Drop pan, remove filter. Install

 

new filter, install pan, install 4 quarts of fluid. At that point, you can start the engine, verify the fluid level, and pretty much call it a done deal, OR you can flush the rest of the old fluid. I would flush, but it's more labor

Check the plug wires while you have the plugs out. Look at insulation, test resistance.

 

I realize I can buy a new or rebuilt starter at a parts store. I wanted to know where I could find the drive or other parts to rebuild it. It started right up this afternoon (was much warmer then it's been), only took 2 tries 1/2 hour ago. Maybe it's temperature related, but obviously it needs something.

 

Problem with changing fluid that's very very old 192k and has never been changed (since 88k at least is you can trash your tranny. Heard too many stories to ignore. A friend bought a used ford and changed the fluid 4 times to get it nice and pink and from what I understand alleviates the problem that new fluid does to an old tranny, namesly bloosening old crud and mixing it all up to the extent it works it's way into everything.

[Garrett Powered]

who cares about ford

[Schurkey]

I realize I can buy a new or rebuilt starter at a parts store. I wanted to know where I could find the drive or other parts to rebuild it. It started right up this afternoon (was much warmer then it's been), only took 2 tries 1/2 hour ago. Maybe it's temperature related, but obviously it needs something.

You can get replacement drives and brushes at any parts store in North America. Bushings, shift forks, small-parts...probably have to order.

 

I've overhauled plenty of starters. Usually I get by with it. Sometimes not--armature or field problem. Do you feel lucky?

 

Problem with changing fluid that's very very old 192k and has never been changed (since 88k at least is you can trash your tranny. Heard too many stories to ignore. A friend bought a used ford and changed the fluid 4 times to get it nice and pink and from what I understand alleviates the problem that new fluid does to an old tranny, namesly bloosening old crud and mixing it all up to the extent it works it's way into everything.

If the only thing holding your trans together is ancient fluid, you needed the trans overhaul anyway.

 

"I" would flush the fluid.

[Chris2012]

Obviously I need to crawl underneath and take a look but it's been cold. Oi

 

I was thinking though. Being lately it really doesn't want to start much at all, could you slip tin foil or thin brass or steel shimstock at the point where the pinion engages the ring gear. I'm assuming or at least allowing for wear in the pinion's teeth.

[Schurkey]

could you slip tin foil or thin brass or steel shimstock at the point where the pinion engages the ring gear. I'm assuming or at least allowing for wear in the pinion's teeth.

If this is what I think it is--a defective starter drive--the problem IS NOT wear on the drive and flywheel teeth. The problem is that the drive has a one-way clutch, and that clutch is slipping.

 

The typical symptom is that sometimes the engine cranks, and sometimes the starter sounds like a siren but the engine doesn't crank. Perhaps the starter begins to crank the engine; but then the one-way clutch slips and you get the siren sound. Once the starter drive begins to slip, it gets worse in a hurry.

 

If that seems to be what yours is doing, you can end any thoughts of shimming the starter or the teeth to fix it. Starter comes off, and you either overhaul it or replace it. "I" would replace it with the newer permanent-magnet, gear-reduction starter...but that's me.

 

If you choose to overhaul the starter, you can pretty much count on replacing the brushes, the shift-fork, the bushings at each end, and the leather washer. You might as well pull the solenoid apart CAREFULLY to clean the copper contacts and the copper disc. The solenoid cap is VERY BRITTLE and you'll crack it if you get careless. Maybe you just want to add "solenoid" to the list of overhaul parts.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Schurkey

[Chris2012]

Ok. Is the drive repairable? Seems the answer is no. But the drive itself is in excess of 30$ and a new rebuilt unit is.a bit more then 50$ including tax. Doesn't seem to make sense buying just the drive. Truth is I'm scrapping this car soon. Buying either an Astro or a Venture. Would prefer not to tow it to the scrappers, for though most vehicles can handle towing 3,500 lbs, I'd rather not for fear of straining a "new" vehicle.

[carkhz316]

You can get replacement drives and brushes at any parts store in North America. Bushings, shift forks, small-parts...probably have to order.

It must be special where you are at, because here in the MN I haven't seen starter repair/ rebuild kits for years on anything less than ~30 years old.

 

But to OP: I know you probably don't want to sink a bunch of money into a 20 year old car, but geesh, you have a clear consensus from Schurkey and others here to just replace the starter. Do it and more than likely problem solved. A few years ago I paid ~$40 for a near-new (7K miles) starter off a '09 Equinox that I got off eBay. It literally looked brand new. I replaced the dying tin can of a starter on my '92 Z34 and it's been terrific since. R&R it at your next oil change and you won't have to pull anything else out of the way when the oil filter is off.

[1988PhantomFE3]

I care about my FORDs

[Schurkey]

It must be special where you are at, because here in the MN I haven't seen starter repair/ rebuild kits for years on anything less than ~30 years old.

Who said anything about a "kit"?

[Schurkey]

Ok. Is the drive repairable? Seems the answer is no.

Replacement only.

 

But the drive itself is in excess of 30$ and a new rebuilt unit is.a bit more then 50$ including tax. Doesn't seem to make sense buying just the drive.

I told you that already.

 

Truth is I'm scrapping this car soon. Buying either an Astro or a Venture. Would prefer not to tow it to the scrappers, for though most vehicles can handle towing 3,500 lbs, I'd rather not for fear of straining a "new" vehicle.

Goodbye.