Alignment issues

[Nas Escobar]

How did you manage to swap over to Gen 2 seats? I've been thinking about getting Cadillac seats in my Cutty for the longest.

[l67ss]

I drilled holes in the bottom of the seats and installed my stock seat tracks

How did you manage to swap over to Gen 2 seats? I've been thinking about getting Cadillac seats in my Cutty for the longest.

[l67ss]

02 gp gt hud

Gen 2 list

Lat links

Rear spindels/brakes

Seats

Console

Power lock/window switches

rack

Exhaust

More to come...

Car

1997 monte carlo

[Schurkey]

The main issue here is that the DC metro area... ...employs very ignorant people with no merit to work at places like CONGRESS and the WHITE HOUSE..,

 

...My point is that my area is filled with idiots...

 

...You'd be surprised at the stupidity that resides in my metropolitan area.

Fixed it for you.

 

No, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Nas Escobar]

Fixed it for you.

 

No, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

LMFAOOO nice!

 

Come to think about it... why am I all up in my feelings about it? I do live in the Capital Region, of course the stupidity of the white house and congress spills over to the private sector. <--- That right there is the private sector jumping on the useless bandwagon! Hahaha

 

With all due seriousness though, I really... really... REALLY need to find a shop that will align this car. It's sad when even a GM stealership tells you "we can't do it" or worse.... "we don't know what Oldsmobile is". I feel like I bought a Saab sometimes...

[alec_b]

Hell even my small(ish) independent shop has the tool for the w-body rear toe. It's just a "C" shaped thing with a peg on each end and a long threaded nut on it to spread or contract the thing. Hell you could probably MAKE one.

 

Of course, being in MN those bolts will NEVER EVER come loose, so adjusting the rear toe really is impossible. And trying to talk someone with a 20 year old W into putting several hundred dollars worth of bolts/time/swearing into getting their alignment right is just about as impossible as removing the bolts themselves.

[Nas Escobar]

So I'm going to bring this from the dead instead of restarting. I don't see a reason to restart.

 

So I got new used tires for my car today then took it to a shop all the way in and low and behold the car still can't be aligned. So now I know that those bolts are called "Eccentric bushings" (WTF man?) but now it seems the shop can't find them (which brought me back here to George's posts).

 

Here's where things get weird. The shop told me to swap out the lower strut bolts to align the toe because the bolts are oval and not 6 sided or something. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, or why that needs to be swapped out. They told me it needs a camber kit. I said okay, but they want too much so time to do it myself... as I look online for that kit, it turns out that the camber kit is the same kit that George recommended on page 2 to swap out the lateral link bolts.

 

So I'm stumped, I saw the car on the rack and the lateral links are pretty much rusted and I can see why they wanna swap em but as far as the strut bolts, what do they need to do there?

[jman093]

Yeah, camber is not really adjustable from the factory. A camber kit might work some, but I hate them because the bolts are too small and don't hold very well. What I've always done is start grinding on the strut holes. Elongate the holes to allow it to be tilted where you need it to go. The toe is adjustable at the rear lateral link to subframe attachment point. It's slotted and the rear arm is meant to be able to be moved in or out to change the toe. A special tool was sent to GM dealers to help get it to move. The design didn't work all that great when the cars were new. With years of rust it's really difficult to get the arm to move. It takes a lot of using the GM tool, major pry bar action, and big effing hammer all with a nice blasting of rust pentrant to get them to move and you then hope there's enough adjustment to get it where it needs to go. Proper first gen alignments, if out of spec like yours, take a lot of time and somebody who knows what they're doing.

 

The easy answer for the toe at least would be to replace the rear lateral links with 2nd/3rd gen ones. They are adjustable and like $25 a piece for Dorman aftermarket. It takes a couple minutes to set toe with those and they don't bend so easily to boot. Also, what a few users like myself have done is get another set of Gen 2/3 adjustables, have them shortened by Matt, and put them on the front as well. Camber and Toe are then both easily and infinitely adjustable.

[Nas Escobar]

Jman, when you say "Strut holes", are you referring to the rear ones or the front ones? The shop says I need to drill holes in my front struts for some reason, not sure why, but whatever.

 

I've seen that tool. It's supposed to go in 2 holes at the IRS right?

 

 

As far as the alignment thing, I know that's right. I've gone through dozens of shops who can't align it or make claims as to why they can't align it.

 

Also, I thought that you had to convert to struts and springs on a 1G to use the adjustable lateral links on the rear. Can I keep the monoleaf and throw on some 2G lateral links? Also, does anyone find it confusing to align it out of norm, considering the machine tells em to move the lateral links instead of adjusting them? I gotta make it retard proof since a lot of these techs are pretty slow if it's not a Honda.

[jman093]

Jman, when you say "Strut holes", are you referring to the rear ones or the front ones? The shop says I need to drill holes in my front struts for some reason, not sure why, but whatever.

 

I've seen that tool. It's supposed to go in 2 holes at the IRS right?

 

 

As far as the alignment thing, I know that's right. I've gone through dozens of shops who can't align it or make claims as to why they can't align it.

 

Also, I thought that you had to convert to struts and springs on a 1G to use the adjustable lateral links on the rear. Can I keep the monoleaf and throw on some 2G lateral links? Also, does anyone find it confusing to align it out of norm, considering the machine tells em to move the lateral links instead of adjusting them? I gotta make it retard proof since a lot of these techs are pretty slow if it's not a Honda.

 

Rear struts. Or shocks I guess I should've called them. I thought you were talking about the rear. What they are talking about on the front is grinding the 3 holes where the upper strut mount bolts to the unibody to allow the top of the strut assembly to be tilted left to right for camber and forward or back for caster. I've personally never done this. Never had to, and honestly wouldn't want to start grinding on the unibody, but it could be done. GM sent a template to dealers for this purpose.

 

Yeah the rear toe adjustment tool has one end that goes in the subframe and the other in the lateral link and in theory just pushes or pulls the link in or out to adjust toe, but like I said it's sometimes a mother. The tool always just starts to bend before the arm budges. It often takes the tool, rust penetrant, a hammer, and a pry bar to get it to budge, and even then you might not have the adjustment you need. I guess I've never put 2/3G lateral links on a leaf car personally, but I don't see why they wouldn't work.

 

Is every shop giving you the same current alignment specs? If so, could you post them so we can take a look at them?

[Nas Escobar]

Rear struts. Or shocks I guess I should've called them. I thought you were talking about the rear. What they are talking about on the front is grinding the 3 holes where the upper strut mount bolts to the unibody to allow the top of the strut assembly to be tilted left to right for camber and forward or back for caster. I've personally never done this. Never had to, and honestly wouldn't want to start grinding on the unibody, but it could be done. GM sent a template to dealers for this purpose.

 

Yeah the rear toe adjustment tool has one end that goes in the subframe and the other in the lateral link and in theory just pushes or pulls the link in or out to adjust toe, but like I said it's sometimes a mother. The tool always just starts to bend before the arm budges. It often takes the tool, rust penetrant, a hammer, and a pry bar to get it to budge, and even then you might not have the adjustment you need. I guess I've never put 2/3G lateral links on a leaf car personally, but I don't see why they wouldn't work.

 

Is every shop giving you the same current alignment specs? If so, could you post them so we can take a look at them?

 

Yeah, I got a bit confused since they talk of drilling the front struts all the time. I've had this done before without drilling but I haven't been able to have another shop align it since April 2013.

 

I've heard of this before, but no one has really made much noise about the actual procedure. I always assumed that tool simply loosened up the lat links.

 

No shop gives me actual specs. Most of them get scared when they see this car and don't even put on the sensors on the wheel to find out the alignment numbers. The most they do is put it on the rack and complain about the tires. No shit, the car eats them, it hasn't been in line for a year. I never have gotten new tires on the car because of this. I always get used ones. The last shop got me further than the other ones since they made me aware of the bolt issues. What I don't understand per se is whether or not they want to change the shock bolts because of the oval head or to install a camber kit on it. As far as the eccentric bolts, IDK what to do with them since it seems hard to swap em. I do have shock bolts from my old Grand Am, I wonder if swapping those where the oval head bolts are would help align the car.

 

If it helps though, I can go to a local shop that claims to do free alignment checks and go from there to get the specs.

[jman093]

Yeah, I got a bit confused since they talk of drilling the front struts all the time. I've had this done before without drilling but I haven't been able to have another shop align it since April 2013.

 

I've heard of this before, but no one has really made much noise about the actual procedure. I always assumed that tool simply loosened up the lat links.

 

No shop gives me actual specs. Most of them get scared when they see this car and don't even put on the sensors on the wheel to find out the alignment numbers. The most they do is put it on the rack and complain about the tires. No shit, the car eats them, it hasn't been in line for a year. I never have gotten new tires on the car because of this. I always get used ones. The last shop got me further than the other ones since they made me aware of the bolt issues. What I don't understand per se is whether or not they want to change the shock bolts because of the oval head or to install a camber kit on it. As far as the eccentric bolts, IDK what to do with them since it seems hard to swap em. I do have shock bolts from my old Grand Am, I wonder if swapping those where the oval head bolts are would help align the car.

 

If it helps though, I can go to a local shop that claims to do free alignment checks and go from there to get the specs.

 

No the lateral links loosen up just by loosening a nut and bolt like anything else. The tool tugs or pushes in it or out when you have loosened it.

 

The shop wants to change the rear shock bolts to install the camber kit bolts. Swapping your Grand Am bolts will accomplish nothing. The different head on the bolt has no bearing on alignment. The bolts are probably splined so my theory is they have that head on them so a mechanic can only put a wrench on it and not a socket with an impact which would screw up the splines. The shop wants to change the shock bolts to install camber kit bolts. They look like this:

 

 

They are certainly one option, but like I said, I don't like them because they are much smaller in diameter and don't hold well. I prefer to elongate the just shock holes and use the factory bolts. Just a little grinding does a lot.

 

It would be helpful if you could post up trustworthy specs. We could tell you exactly what needs changed at least.

[Nas Escobar]

No the lateral links loosen up just by loosening a nut and bolt like anything else. The tool tugs or pushes in it or out when you have loosened it.

 

Yeah, I figured that much. When I said "loosen up the links", I meant it as give it the force to loosen them from the current position and move them around. I didn't mean it as they were held on by some magical force.

 

The shop wants to change the rear shock bolts to install the camber kit bolts. Swapping your Grand Am bolts will accomplish nothing. The different head on the bolt has no bearing on alignment. The bolts are probably splined so my theory is they have that head on them so a mechanic can only put a wrench on it and not a socket with an impact which would screw up the splines. The shop wants to change the shock bolts to install camber kit bolts. They look like this:

 

 

 

 

They are certainly one option, but like I said, I don't like them because they are much smaller in diameter and don't hold well. I prefer to elongate the just shock holes and use the factory bolts. Just a little grinding does a lot.

 

It would be helpful if you could post up trustworthy specs. We could tell you exactly what needs changed at least.

 

I get it now, I thought they just didn't want to deal with the strange bolt. Techs in my area are lazy, all I need to say about this situation.

 

I'm trying to get a readout, but it's pretty hard when the techs don't even wanna touch the car because they've never seen one like it before.

 

I really wish you were on the east coast, would make it easier to get this over and done with.

 

As far as replacing the lateral link bolts, (which they call eccentric bushings, idk why) how easy, or how hard is it? I've heard of people saying the IRS has to be dropped, and I've heard that the center of it can be dropped to push out the bolts.

[jman093]

LOL, thanks. Well if you ever find youself in Wichita....lol. It's pretty hard to get quality work done if you can't do it yourself, even an alignment. Despite you paying $80, $100, or whatever, the technician is probably getting paid $15 to align your car. It's not in his interest to spend a lot of time there. You always want a car where you can "set the toe and let it go." Obviously that's not a legitimate reason for someone to half-ass or falsify something, but it's the reality of the situation nonetheless. I'm hoping to get out of this field soon. No money and 60 plus hour weeks since they don't have to pay overtime.

 

At least you realize you're getting the runaround on it. I always cringe when members post about having an alignment on their first gen. I think it's more likely than not it was either done poorly and/or dishonestly, but the owner doesn't know. I can't know that for sure, so I can't say anything. I just know what goes on in general.

 

As far as replacing the lateral link bolts, (which they call eccentric bushings, idk why) how easy, or how hard is it? I've heard of people saying the IRS has to be dropped, and I've heard that the center of it can be dropped to push out the bolts.

 

Replacing lateral link bolts? To remove the lateral links I'm guessing? The rear ones are easy. The bolts are accessible and they come right out and the rears are the adjustable one on 2/3G cars. To remove the front links, the subframe does have to be lowered some. GM decided the inner bolt on the front links should be inserted from the front, where it hits the gas tank before it comes out. Brilliant! Either the subframe or gas tank has to be lowered a little to get it out. Obviously when I installed my 2/3G links, that bolt was reinserted from the backside like it should've been done on assembly.

[Nas Escobar]

LOL, thanks. Well if you ever find youself in Wichita....lol. It's pretty hard to get quality work done if you can't do it yourself, even an alignment. Despite you paying $80, $100, or whatever, the technician is probably getting paid $15 to align your car. It's not in his interest to spend a lot of time there. You always want a car where you can "set the toe and let it go." Obviously that's not a legitimate reason for someone to half-ass or falsify something, but it's the reality of the situation nonetheless. I'm hoping to get out of this field soon. No money and 60 plus hour weeks since they don't have to pay overtime.

 

If shipping my car to Wichita is easier and cheaper than driving up and down between Maryland and Virginia to find someone competent to align this car, then I'll PM you and we can talk prices. If we can do this under the table where you keep all the profit, then better yet.

 

Other than that, I agree with you. I've been told numerous times that I should get into the auto servicing field, but as you said, the pay isn't good at all, not to mention the risks of back problems and having accidents that may permanently disfigure you isn't worth the low pay. Not to sound like it's beneath me since I do a lot of my own work. The only way you can make money out of this is by working at a dealer, and even then it's a stretch.

 

At least you realize you're getting the runaround on it. I always cringe when members post about having an alignment on their first gen. I think it's more likely than not it was either done poorly and/or dishonestly, but the owner doesn't know. I can't know that for sure, so I can't say anything. I just know what goes on in general.

 

Oh yeah, trust me I know how things are, especially considering the fact that I grew up in situations like this, made me pretty quick to spot it. It's a shame that this car gets treated like a french car. It's gotten to the point where I'm automatically getting pushed back out the door as soon as they see me or my car. But I'm always given the runaround, whether it's because of this car or at Walmart. There's always something holding me back.

 

 

Replacing lateral link bolts? To remove the lateral links I'm guessing? The rear ones are easy. The bolts are accessible and they come right out and the rears are the adjustable one on 2/3G cars. To remove the front links, the subframe does have to be lowered some. GM decided the inner bolt on the front links should be inserted from the front, where it hits the gas tank before it comes out. Brilliant! Either the subframe or gas tank has to be lowered a little to get it out. Obviously when I installed my 2/3G links, that bolt was reinserted from the backside like it should've been done on assembly.

 

2 things actually. 1. because they keep saying that the bolts are seized. IDK if they're trying to hustle me or what, but they say they're seized and keep throwing those bolts under the bus. 2. I may convert to 2G lateral links if it's not that hard to get them off.

 

To do this though, I have to drop the monoleaf right? I notice that on mine, there's a bar running in the middle of the subframe, but that's the monoleaf right? Sorry if I sound ignorant, but this is my first monoleaf car.

 

Not my picture below, I found this from someone that converted to 2G links, but in the center there's that bar running in the middle of it.

 

[rich_e777]

Of all places Pep Boys was competent enough to align front and rear in my area, there is also a Goodyear that does a good job as well. I did remember the counter guy/mechanic gave a heavy sigh when I confirmed I did want the rear done as well. Both places gave the specs unrequested and went through the numbers with me. If there is a parts store you favor I'd go ask one of the more experienced guys or a manager what shop they would recommend. Also if you cleaned up the area the mechanic will be working on you might get better results, worth a shot. I personally charge people extra money for a swimming pool liner install when I have to clean up pool toys, dog shit, yard debris, etc. and I have to deal with green scummy water that's been sitting in the sun all year. If you think of a shop to try again spray everything down with WD-40 or equivalent after taking a pressure washer or something to the underside.

 

I'm going to attempt my on alignment when I drop my rear suspension just to see how it is. Both places are within walking distance so even if the car drives sideways I can still get it there.

[rich_e777]

If shipping my car to Wichita is easier and cheaper than driving up and down between Maryland and Virginia to find someone competent to align this car, then I'll PM you and we can talk prices. If we can do this under the table where you keep all the profit, then better yet.

 

Other than that, I agree with you. I've been told numerous times that I should get into the auto servicing field, but as you said, the pay isn't good at all, not to mention the risks of back problems and having accidents that may permanently disfigure you isn't worth the low pay. Not to sound like it's beneath me since I do a lot of my own work. The only way you can make money out of this is by working at a dealer, and even then it's a stretch.

 

 

 

Oh yeah, trust me I know how things are, especially considering the fact that I grew up in situations like this, made me pretty quick to spot it. It's a shame that this car gets treated like a french car. It's gotten to the point where I'm automatically getting pushed back out the door as soon as they see me or my car. But I'm always given the runaround, whether it's because of this car or at Walmart. There's always something holding me back.

 

 

 

 

2 things actually. 1. because they keep saying that the bolts are seized. IDK if they're trying to hustle me or what, but they say they're seized and keep throwing those bolts under the bus. 2. I may convert to 2G lateral links if it's not that hard to get them off.

 

To do this though, I have to drop the monoleaf right? I notice that on mine, there's a bar running in the middle of the subframe, but that's the monoleaf right? Sorry if I sound ignorant, but this is my first monoleaf car.

 

Not my picture below, I found this from someone that converted to 2G links, but in the center there's that bar running in the middle of it.

 

 

The mono-leaf looks like a flat solid bar running between the Lat. links. has pads on both ends the end up resting on top of notches at the rear spindles, also has to retaining plates closer to the center. To remove the assembly in the pic you will have to drop the mono-leaf. From a previous thread I somewhat remember that you can scribe around the top strut mounts and remove the bolts on one the strut, remove both retainer plates and you could pull the leaf out. IIRC2x though. The rear suspension looks easy enough to just drop the entire assembly at once, probably after breaking loose key bolts.

 

Are the rear links(bottom links in pic) supposed to be bent like that?

[Nas Escobar]

The mono-leaf looks like a flat solid bar running between the Lat. links. has pads on both ends the end up resting on top of notches at the rear spindles, also has to retaining plates closer to the center. To remove the assembly in the pic you will have to drop the mono-leaf. From a previous thread I somewhat remember that you can scribe around the top strut mounts and remove the bolts on one the strut, remove both retainer plates and you could pull the leaf out. IIRC2x though. The rear suspension looks easy enough to just drop the entire assembly at once, probably after breaking loose key bolts.

 

Are the rear links(bottom links in pic) supposed to be bent like that?

 

This is WhiteZ34's old suspension on his TGP. It's not supposed to be like that, he upgraded to 2G lateral links because they were bent. I found this from a thread in 2012. That's where I got the idea that you had to swap to coilovers if you did rear lat links. He said it wouldn't work if you had a monoleaf, but didn't state why. I may bring that thread from the dead if need be.

 

Also, in regards to your other post, the most competent shop in my area when it comes to franchised places is Firestone. I've only had a problem with them once but that's because of the tech that was working on my car. I went to a different one and didn't have that problem again. The only problem is that for some reason, they didn't give me a readout. They usually do, but I guess they were more focused on checking to see if it can be aligned than what the specs are currently at.

 

As far as asking anyone else, most parts monkeys in my area are just that... parts monkeys. They barely know a nut from a bolt, let alone a wheel hubcap from a wheel bearing (and yes, I shit you not someone tried to sell me a hubcap instead of a wheel bearing once). Asking them is like asking someone who has difficulty getting girls how to spit game. I usually have to wing it and hope for the best. I've learned small shops are less inclined to moan about the car.

 

Also, as far as the underside goes, I wash my car weekly so the underside is almost always clean. The only time it isn't is when it rains and I have to drive through mud, which I like to avoid because my underside has no rust at all and I want it this way.

[Nas Escobar]

Is every shop giving you the same current alignment specs? If so, could you post them so we can take a look at them?

 

I got the car "aligned" today. I put it in quotes because only the front was actually touched... or at least that's what the tech says. I assume he was put off by the way the rear is aligned.

 

Here's how it looked like before and after. The only thing I don't like is that they used pictures instead of words, so it's confusing, but it is what it is. I hope you can understand it.

 

[jman093]

Yeah that's pretty messed up. I don't even know how it even gets that off outside of crashing into things. They only thing they changed was right front toe. According to that, it was toed in 1.91 inches (front of tire was almost 2 inches to the left of where the rear of tire is at). That's an insane amount although they supposedly fixed that. The car would have to drive a ton better. Your front camber, while off, isn't going to hurt much as far as tire wear. Your caster is in GM spec.

 

The rear camber is like the front. It's off, but not really wearing tires. The left rear toe is supposedly toed out .92 inches. This will cause tire wear, is making the track crooked, and I imagine makes it handle funny.

[Nas Escobar]

Yeah that's pretty messed up. I don't even know how it even gets that off outside of crashing into things. They only thing they changed was right front toe. According to that, it was toed in 1.91 inches (front of tire was almost 2 inches to the left of where the rear of tire is at). That's an insane amount although they supposedly fixed that. The car would have to drive a ton better. Your front camber, while off, isn't going to hurt much as far as tire wear. Your caster is in GM spec.

 

The rear camber is like the front. It's off, but not really wearing tires. The left rear toe is supposedly toed out .92 inches. This will cause tire wear, is making the track crooked, and I imagine makes it handle funny.

 

The only thing that might contribute to it are the potholes in the DC suburbs. Other than that, I drove the car with a bad right side lower ball joint for a week. Pretty dangerous stuff but sometimes you have to do what you have to do in order to move the car around.

 

I do know the alignment got off after I had the alternator changed out. When the person did that, he took off the whole strut assembly for clearance and the axle. The lower ball joint was swapped out that same time, but it was defective. I should probably mention that the car had a bad wheel bearings for about a year and no one had the audacity to tell me something was wrong. It wasn't until I had a trans issue that I found out about the bad right side wheel bearing, then the left went out. I should have swapped them at the same time but I had no cash. The rear struts were swapped out too soo idk if that had anything to do with it. Keep in mind that this car has been off track for a year. It may not have been this bad after the alternator swap.

 

But yeah, I basically paid $70 for nothing. I will admit, the car is more straighter, it pulls a lot less and it's easier to drive. It just feels strange as if the car can't figure out what is straight. While it doesn't have a pull, it does seem to wander around, it's not noticeable but if I let go of the steering wheel, I have 10 seconds before it starts changing lanes. As far as I know, I'm not dogtracking but I am wearing out theinside of my left rear tire. It will last me a good 6 months before I need to change though.

 

Now my question is, if I convert to 2G lateral links, can the rear be exactly at 0 degrees or close to it without camber kits or any crazy idea?

['93RegalGS3800]

Jeez. I have a rather major alignment issue....but it's at the front of the car. when my brother was driving it he somehow knocked the drivers wheel out of whack and now you have to turn the steering wheel way over to get the car to drive straight. There was a few little things he did to it but the fucked up alignment is the most prominent.

 

After that he ain't never borrowing it again. I'd love to knock him out alignment too...

All the more reason why you should let nobody drive your car.

[jman093]

 

Now my question is, if I convert to 2G lateral links, can the rear be exactly at 0 degrees or close to it without camber kits or any crazy idea?

 

With 2/3G links you can set camber at whatever you want. 0 if you want, but I'd put it at -0.5 on each side. A half degree negative will help it grip better. I just put the TGP at -1. I'm running -1.5 on all four corners of the C6 since it sees a lot of track time. -0.5 won't hurt tires whatsoever. Many stock cars run much more. Some later model Civics are running around -2 degrees factory in the back, which is a lot.

[Nas Escobar]

Well I was always told 0 to 0.5 was a good alignment spec, so long it was in the "Green" and not the "Red". Keep in mind I'm not a tech/mechanic I just do my side jobs on basic things. I know a tech would probably set the degree around that area, that's why I asked that specific number since it would be easy. The last thing I would want is -1.97 on a tire unless the car is specifically tweaked to accept that with no tire issues.