1992 Regal ABS

[Solarboy]

I'm new, so maybe my navigation is poor...but putting "ABS" in the search window produces zero hits, and I can't believe I'm the first person to discuss the ABS, but maybe I am? Anyway: I've got a 92 Regal Limited with a flashing ABS light. Light goes on at start-up, without moving the car. I found a blown 30A fuse in the underhood passenger side fuse box and replaced it. No change. The decal on the box lid is unreadable, and the owners manual does not seem to match the fuse configuration. It would be great to just have somebody with the same car and an intact decal to go take a picture of it and post it somewhere! Also, if I take the 5A fuse for the ABS out, will that just mean I have "old school" brakes? In other words-if I disable the ABS, will the brakes be any worse than conventional non-ABS systems. I've been looking for the real info on this system for days now, and really don't want to put out $75 for a shop manual. All the common manuals tell me to go away, it's too complicated and scary for mere mortals such as me, armed only with my pittance of knowledge and crude hand tools. This car runs fine and is a very comfy ride, but a flashing ABS light, along with the precautions to pull off the road and call for a tow if it happens, takes the joy out of driving it.

[White93z34]

hmm.. just to be sure and not to ask a stupid question but.... are you SURE you have a 1992 and not a 1991? that makes all the difference in the world of ABS systems.

 

If it is a 1992 you have a Tieves IV ABS system which is usually pretty good, does it have a standard screw on cap on the master? I've never heard of a flashing ABS light on one of those.

[RobertISaar]

i thought ABS VI(all 92-up 1/1.5W) was Delco-Morraine?

 

i've never had so significant of a failure for it to blink at me, though i seem to remember reading it as possible.

[Schurkey]

1. Many forum search engines ignore any word shorter than four letters. Searching for ABS, therefore, doesn't return any hits.

 

2. Buy the real shop manual.

[Cutlass350]

Light goes on at start-up, without moving the car.

Also, if I take the 5A fuse for the ABS out, will that just mean I have "old school" brakes?

don't want to put out $75 for a shop manual.

All the common manuals tell me to go away, it's too complicated and scary for mere mortals such as me, armed only with my pittance of knowledge and crude hand tools.

 

A number of things:

1) If you're not willing to spend $75 for a Dealer Service manual, imho, you shouldn't bring any tool within 1,000 feet of your car. Yes, it makes so much sense (and $$$ cents) to pay a mechanic $100/hr for stuff you can do for yourself. And/or, get bad, and often dangerous, advice from the interweb.

 

2) You have a Delco-IV ABS system. That's very important to know.

 

3) It's simple to fix/replace the broken stuff. In fact, the hubs and half-shafts, are often the biggest PITA items to replace.

 

4a) Hey doctor, I my side hurts. Doctor's reply: "No problem, I'll just get my sawsall and RANDOMLY cut into your body RANDOMLY looking for problems".

Gee, now come up with a dozen descriptive words for that doctor.

 

4B) I have a very complex electro-mechanical system with a problem, what should I do? I know, I'll RANDOMLY replace RANDOM parts!

Gee, now come up with a dozen descriptive words for that person.

 

5) YOU MUST READ THE ERROR CODE FROM THE ABS CONTROLLER!

 

6) YOU MUST READ THE ERROR CODE FROM THE ABS CONTROLLER!

 

7) YOU MUST READ THE ERROR CODE FROM THE ABS CONTROLLER!

 

8) I'm kidding about reading the code, heck replace random ******. You have nothing better to do with your time or money.

 

9) MOST ABS CODE READERS CAN NOT READ THE PRE-96 DELCO-IV ABS ERROR CODES. The manuals for many scanners and ABS readers often are not accurate in what models they support.

 

10) GM changed things EVERY YEAR on EVERY MODEL - that includes the ABS diag protocol, the pins used, etc. So, being able to read ABS codes on another model or year means NOTHING!

 

11) It's very very hard to find an ABS code reader for pre-96 GMs. Some readers support only a few models. And, the support list is often wrong. So, if you buy an ABS reader or code scanner and it doesn't work, don't say no one warned you.

 

12) Many local garages won't have the tools to read your ABS codes. Although, some will.

 

13) Any dealer will have the tools to read your ABS code. Figure ~$100 for the scan. Ouch! Yes, it's a semi rip-off!

 

14) You can buy a China Clone Tech-II scanner for ~$500. That will read your ABS codes. You will NOT be able to sell that clone on ebay. Attempting to sell that clone will get your account suspended very quickly. Imho, as long as you're honest that it's a China Clone, you could maybe sell it on criag's list etc. Note, imho, anyone with the intelligence of a typical 7 year old and an internet connection can tell if it's a clone. So, don't be a fool and try to sell a clone as the real deal.

 

15) As someone who has done digital/computer controls for the past dozen+ year, I have MASSIVE respect for the Delco-IV ABS system. But, I hate to say, that depending on the error failure, the Delco-IV ABS may or may not be safe/okay to drive with or to disconnect. In general, those cases are maybe less than 1 out of 100,000++. However, the odds or winning the lottery are 1 in many millions, and people do win. So, that's also saying a Delco-IV ABS system could have a failure that results in the car not being safe to drive.

That's another reason why knowing the ABS error code is important. Then, it is likely safe to yank the fuse for the ABS system.

 

Yes, for a proper and fully working Delco-IV ABS system, yes, yanking the ABS fuse then means that the brakes work normally. The ABS chamber pistons will remained locked and never move, and the solenoids will be in the "normal" mode.

 

 

Good Luck!

Edited September 7, 2013 by Cutlass350

[Cutlass350]

FYI, I found this list of ABS types:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs_list.htm

 

But, I know your car has a Delco-IV ABS because of the replacement ABS controller parts for your car (check out Rockauto, AdvanceAuto, NAPA, Amazon, Ebay, carparts.com, etc).

[Cutlass350]

BTW, I found this youtube video:

 

 

I watch some of it. It seems very accurate. Also, in the first few minutes, it gives a quick overview on how the Delco-IV ABS system works.

[Schurkey]

9) MOST ABS CODE READERS CAN NOT READ THE PRE-96 DELCO-IV ABS ERROR CODES. The manuals for many scanners and ABS readers often are not accurate in what models they support.

I agree with just about everything you said. I'll amplify this item, though.

 

I've been on a crusade against cheap-sh!t consumer-grade scan tools. They are deceptive junk, supplying generic OBD II information instead of the "true" code; and perhaps not reading OBD I info at all, in addition to not reading ABS or body computer codes and data.

 

However, a used PROFESSIONAL-GRADE scan tool can cost about the same as the higher-end consumer junk, and does a perfectly adequate job of delivering the true codes, ABS codes, AND THE DATA STREAM, etc.

 

The software is the main variable in terms of the price. Software that is ten years old or more, the scan tool is dirt cheap. Software newer than ten years old, the scan tool price will increase. Software only a couple of years old, the scan tool will be quite expensive. A Snap-On MT2500 "Red Brick" scanner can be had for two or three hundred dollars, with an assortment of vehicle-specific cables, suitable for vehicles up to 1999 or maybe 2003. A person is FAR better-off to have a used "Professional" scan tool than the typical consumer-grade crap tools.

 

I wouldn't know a clone Tech II; I've never seen a genuine one. The Snap-On or OTC Genysis units are all over eBay, though.

[Solarboy]

A number of things:

1) If you're not willing to spend $75 for a Dealer Service manual, imho, you shouldn't bring any tool within 1,000 feet of your car. Yes, it makes so much sense (and $$$ cents) to pay a mechanic $100/hr for stuff you can do for yourself. And/or, get bad, and often dangerous, advice from the interweb. No, I won't buy a dealer service manual. I have a manual that covers everything I need, except ABS info. I will test and replace bad components, I will inspect wires and connectors and learn everything I can about the ABS.

2) You have a Delco-IV ABS system. That's very important to know. I'm not convinced: The VIN sez 92', the owners manual (I have reason to believe it is original) sez 92', but certain pictures and diagrams do not match what I have. I watched the U-tube vids that went over the Delco-IV, and the master cylinder/ABS assembly did not look like this one. Do I have a DELCO POWERMASTER 3 ABS? I don't know, that's part of why I'm here.

3) It's simple to fix/replace the broken stuff. In fact, the hubs and half-shafts, are often the biggest PITA items to replace.

 

4a) Hey doctor, I my side hurts. Doctor's reply: "No problem, I'll just get my sawsall and RANDOMLY cut into your body RANDOMLY looking for problems".

Gee, now come up with a dozen descriptive words for that doctor.

 

4B) I have a very complex electro-mechanical system with a problem, what should I do? I know, I'll RANDOMLY replace RANDOM parts!

Gee, now come up with a dozen descriptive words for that person. I have never, in my 40+ years of wrenching every randomly replaced parts.

 

5) YOU MUST READ THE ERROR CODE FROM THE ABS CONTROLLER! No, probably not. But we will see, won't we?

6) YOU MUST READ THE ERROR CODE FROM THE ABS CONTROLLER!

 

7) YOU MUST READ THE ERROR CODE FROM THE ABS CONTROLLER!

 

8) I'm kidding about reading the code, heck replace random ******. You have nothing better to do with your time or money. You seem to make some large assumptions about my approach. Assume nothing, ok?

9) MOST ABS CODE READERS CAN NOT READ THE PRE-96 DELCO-IV ABS ERROR CODES. The manuals for many scanners and ABS readers often are not accurate in what models they support.

 

10) GM changed things EVERY YEAR on EVERY MODEL - that includes the ABS diag protocol, the pins used, etc. So, being able to read ABS codes on another model or year means NOTHING!

 

11) It's very very hard to find an ABS code reader for pre-96 GMs. Some readers support only a few models. And, the support list is often wrong. So, if you buy an ABS reader or code scanner and it doesn't work, don't say no one warned you.

 

12) Many local garages won't have the tools to read your ABS codes. Although, some will.

 

13) Any dealer will have the tools to read your ABS code. Figure ~$100 for the scan. Ouch! Yes, it's a semi rip-off!

 

14) You can buy a China Clone Tech-II scanner for ~$500. That will read your ABS codes. You will NOT be able to sell that clone on ebay. Attempting to sell that clone will get your account suspended very quickly. Imho, as long as you're honest that it's a China Clone, you could maybe sell it on criag's list etc. Note, imho, anyone with the intelligence of a typical 7 year old and an internet connection can tell if it's a clone. So, don't be a fool and try to sell a clone as the real deal.

 

15) As someone who has done digital/computer controls for the past dozen+ year, I have MASSIVE respect for the Delco-IV ABS system. But, I hate to say, that depending on the error failure, the Delco-IV ABS may or may not be safe/okay to drive with or to disconnect. In general, those cases are maybe less than 1 out of 100,000++. However, the odds or winning the lottery are 1 in many millions, and people do win. So, that's also saying a Delco-IV ABS system could have a failure that results in the car not being safe to drive.

That's another reason why knowing the ABS error code is important. Then, it is likely safe to yank the fuse for the ABS system. I'd take those odds, but I'll do my own research first. Your humble opinion has been noted.

Yes, for a proper and fully working Delco-IV ABS system, yes, yanking the ABS fuse then means that the brakes work normally. The ABS chamber pistons will remained locked and never move, and the solenoids will be in the "normal" mode.

 

 

Good Luck! Luck has nothing to do with it.

[Solarboy]

hmm.. just to be sure and not to ask a stupid question but.... are you SURE you have a 1992 and not a 1991? that makes all the difference in the world of ABS systems.

 

If it is a 1992 you have a Tieves IV ABS system which is usually pretty good, does it have a standard screw on cap on the master? I've never heard of a flashing ABS light on one of those.

 

Yeah...I don't want to spend much time learning about a system I don't have. I'm too close to the front row of the actuarial tables to waste time. The first question, I guess, should be "Did Buick ever allow mutant hybrid 91/92 regal combos to be sold as 92's? I have no idea, but if I can't find a fuse diagram that matches what I have in the 92' literature, but find a match in the 91' stuff....well, I guess that answers that first question, doesn't it. The ABS controller is under the left front fender, under the fuse box. The box lid has a triangular shape, with a rectangular decal...that is totally unreadable on my car. A 30A fuse was blown, I replaced it and the ABS light is still on, but not flashing. I'm going to assume that due to the size of the fuse, and the fact that everything else worked, and it changed the warning light...that it was the ABS. OK, so I have to rotate the tires, and while it's off the ground with it's shoes off, I'll check the wheel sensors.

[Schurkey]

Get the model year from the VIN number. (10th digit)

[Cutlass350]

The Delco powermaster and the Delco-IV look very different.

 

 

The Delco PowerMaster ABS:

Has a big motor under the "Frankenstein-looking" Master Cylinder.

From: Rockauto.com

Under: 1991 BUICK REGAL 3.1L V6 : Brake/Wheel Hub : ABS Hydraulic Unit

RAYBESTOS Part # ABS540087

 

The control Unit:

 

 

 

 

 

The Delco-IV ABS :

Has the ABS unit "attached to the side of a typical looking Master Cylinder"

From: Rockauto.com

Under: 1992 BUICK REGAL 3.1L V6 : Brake/Wheel Hub : ABS Hydraulic Unit

RAYBESTOS Part # ABS540070 Professional Grade; Reman

 

The control Unit:

 

 

 

As I mentioned, use Rockauto.com, NAPA, Advanced Auto, ebay, etc.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Cutlass350

[Solarboy]

Yep, I'm convinced. It's a 92', and has the Delco VI system. Owners manual be damned! So replacing the 30A fuse gives me a steady ABS warning light (used to flash) and I have reason to believe that a wheel sensor and/or wiring to the sensor is bad. The right read wheel needs a new hub/bearing assembly, and it appears the PO attempted to remove the hub with no prep and cheap wrenchs. All 4 bolts are rounded off real nice. I'll have to use the flame wrench to get it off.

[Cutlass350]

Yep, I'm convinced. It's a 92', and has the Delco VI system. Owners manual be damned! So replacing the 30A fuse gives me a steady ABS warning light (used to flash) and I have reason to believe that a wheel sensor and/or wiring to the sensor is bad. The right read wheel needs a new hub/bearing assembly, and it appears the PO attempted to remove the hub with no prep and cheap wrenchs. All 4 bolts are rounded off real nice. I'll have to use the flame wrench to get it off.

I'm glad that you verified that you have a Delco-IV ABS system!

Imho, that's a very easy system to work on. Again, the half-shafts/wheel bearings are often the biggest PITA. But, if you have to replace the ABS unit, then you'll have to bleed all of the brakes. Depending on where you live, rust, etc, that may be easy. Or, it could mean 1->4 new calipers. Thankfully, reman calipers aren't that expensive for the car.

 

 

For your car, for the rear, the ABS sensor in integrated inside the hub.

 

If the car needs a new wheel bearing, then that has to be replaced.

Since the ABS light comes on as soon as you start the car, it could be a bad ABS sensor. Then, the ABS light will come on when the car is started.

 

Different tests are done at different times. At start up, a simple test for a "resistance range" is done for each ABS sensor.

 

You can test the sensor with a DVM/multimeter. You can use a resistor to verify that's the only error.

Of course, reading the error code with a scanner is the correct way to diagnose the problem. :-)

 

But, you may get lucky. If you have to replace the hub, then replace the hub and see see if the error light goes away. If the ABS light stays on, then you need to find the problem(s). You can tell without replacing the hub. You can tell if that was the only ABS problem by hooking up the ABS connector to the new hub.

 

I've mentioned a few times how counterfeit hubs/bearings/parts is a big problem. And, to get only GM/ACDelco parts.

 

But, if you're tight on money, Rockauto has a clearance sale on rear hubs for your car for ~$40.

NOTE: I, and many others, have had bad experiences with non ACDelco hubs. For me, one lasted less than 3 months. Another lasted ~9months. Now, I'll bite the bullet, and get only OEM Hubs. I wasted too much money and time in the past on cheap/questionable parts.

 

But, if you're tight on money, like most of us today, and/or you do not think that you'll be keeping the car "very long", then you may want to consider the cheaper hubs. Of course, it also depends on how much time you have to do things like replacing hubs/etc.

 

From:

Rockauto:

http://www.rockauto.com/

1992 BUICK REGAL 3.1L V6 : Brake/Wheel Hub : Hub

PRECISION AUTOMOTIVE Part # 512004

Rear Hub Assembly w/4 WHEEL DISC,AXLE BEARING - 4 WHEEL ABS; CUSTOM

[Wholesaler Closeout - Private Label Pkg. - 30 Day Warranty] (Only 3 Remaining)

* Stocked in outlying warehouse--shipping delayed up to 1 business day

$32.79 (note, S&H is extra ~~$9)

 

 

 

From Amazon:

www.amazon.com/Premium-NT512004-Bearing-Assembly-Warranty/dp/B007NZ7YRC/

DTA Premium NT512004 Hub Bearing Assembly With Warranty - Rear Wheel

by DRIVE TECH AMERICA

Price: $50.00

Note: $10.76 shipping when purchased from ABC Autoparts. Not eligible for Amazon Prime.

 

 

 

From Advanced Auto:

Driveworks Wheel Hub Assembly

Part No. NT512004

1992 Buick Regal Limited

4-Wheel ABS; REAR; Non-Driven w/ Integral ABS

$87.49

 

 

Moog Hub Assemblies Hub Assembly

Part No. 512004

1992 Buick Regal Limited

Rear; 4-Wheel ABS

$127.99

 

 

Good Luck!

[Solarboy]

Ahh...the PO blues are playing here. A well intentioned dad tried to fix the bad rear wheel bearing for his kid. Looks like he couldn't get the rotor off, so he went at those 10mm bolts with a box or open end and lost. I got it apart, new hub installed, new rotor and pads. Looks like the emergency brake was disconnected and left like that. This is an interesting car...it has been a lot of years since I worked on something so "American". After owning several American cars when I was a teen, I went on to VW, various Japanese cars, and then Saab, Volvo and more VW (the ones with the real engines, not the "a good idea for an airplane engine in 1921" air cooled models), now I've got a whole different set of rigs...Nissan, Subaru, Honda, Jaguar and this Regal. My mother has a 95 Park Avenue, so I've got two 90's Buick products to get familiar with. But anyway...I'd been away so long I didn't notice when they lost the leaf springs and live axles. And rear discs! So, I'm enjoying this...these Buicks seem to be well engineered.

[Solarboy]

Yes, the light went from flashing to steady with the fuse change. It goes on immediately on starting. If I find a bad wheel sensor and fix it (and assuming that is the only problem) will the light go out, or do I need some kind of magic wand, available only at great expense or by renting the services of a Wizard at a dealership? Will it reset by itself after a number of cycles?

[White93z34]

best way is to find someone to read out the codes and repair based on those, but once repaired the codes should clear once the fault is no longer detected. May take a few drives for the BCM to detect everything being online and operating properly.

[RobertISaar]

i THINK the ABS light will only be commanded on for current codes. history codes will clear themselves after 50 or so keycycles.

[Solarboy]

After taking care of the obvious things, learning as I go...I'm at a point where I'm not focused on the ABS as I am on the "core" braking system...in other words, the system apart from the ABS, if that make any sense. I replaced both rear rotors, calipers and pads. Fixed the parking brake, replaced a hub/bearing assembly. I looked at the front brakes, and while the pads look fine, the rotors don't look that good...like they were re-used without being turned, and they were mucked up some from maybe running the pads down to the metal. So I'll either have them turned or get new. Probably new pads, too. But when I test drove it after doing the rears, it seems like a LOT of the braking is being done by the front brakes...I know they always work harder than the backs...but it "feels" like the fronts are doing more work than they should, and when I check the temps, the front rotors are too hot to touch, while the back are barely warm. I'll re-bleed the rears, just to be sure that's not the problem (pedal doesn't feel spongy...but it also doesn't feel right...goes too far before firming up and braking) I guess all this could be related to the ABS, so I'll be pulling the 5A fuse for it, and see if there is any change. Thanks for the help and suggestions. My mother has a 95' Park Avenue, so a lot of Buick lore I'm picking up with be helpful when working on her car, too.

[Schurkey]

Are the rear calipers seized? Seems to be a common problem, although neither of my Luminas has had that trouble.

 

Are the rear calipers adjusted? Most folks don't realize that the rear brakes are adjusted by using the park brake. Failure to use the park brake now 'n' then leads to excess pedal travel.

 

Have you bled the brakes AT THE ABS unit?

[Solarboy]

Rear calipers are new, and work fine. Brakes engage with pedal at rear, but I suspect they are not holding very much when applied during driving. Just feeling how the car nosedives as if the fronts were doing 90% of the work. I operated the parking brake about 30 times or more over the course of bleeding and adjusting the rear brakes. I didn't bleed at the ABS...I only opened the back lines for as long as it took to disconnect the banjo bolt and transfer it plus two new copper washers to the new calipers, losing very little fluid. MC reservoir never got low...kept it topped up. But, it looks like I'll be pulling the fronts off, so I'll do a full system bleed then. Is there a manual bleeding procedure for ABS that will do the job? I don't have a pressure bleeder.

[l67ss]

Id jus ditch the abs

[White93z34]

theres just 2 bleeders on the master cylinder, bleed them like any other brake item.

[Solarboy]

Is there a proportioning valve on the 92' Regal Limited w/ABS? The front brakes seem to be doing too much of the braking. I don't see a proportioning valve listed as an available part through Autozone, which I guess can mean it doesn't have one, or Autozone doesn't sell them?

[AL]

Its part of the master cylinder, and check your rear brakes to see if the calipers are even working