chevelle3504speed Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 Hey guys, I installed an L36 3800, 4T65-E, wiring harness and PCM out of a 98 LTZ Lumina in my '95 Olds Cutlass Supreme this weekend originally equipped with the 3100, but it won't start. No power to the starter. I had a key made with the resistance of the key out of the Lumina but cut for the lock cylinder of the Olds. I had to change a few wires around in the C-100 connector, but none related to the VATS system or starter. Fuel pump runs and all my lights and gauges work. I have not had any programming done to the computer. Do you guys have any ideas? Could it be a VATS system issue? I saw mention of a theft deterrent module or relay in the wiring pinouts when I was working on the wiring. Is that something I need to swap from the Lumina into the Olds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 Largely unrelated but when you installed the harness did you run a spare cable to the interior side of the C100 for Serial Class II data so you can have a working diagnostic port under the dash? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 Do you have a Security light? sounds almost like a VATs issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS009 Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 ever had any issues with it before you did the swap? If so it's most likely the ignition switch. If you can start the car by putting it in run and manually putting 12v to the starter solenoid then I'd say it's definitely the ignition switch. This would rule out VATS because VATS won't let the injectors work. You did switch VATS systems right? IIRC the vats system is contained in a box somewhere under the dash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevelle3504speed Posted June 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 Thanks for the response. I'm suspicious of VATS too. I did run the Class II Serial data wire, but I don't have a scanner. Never had any issues with the Olds starting before this. I drove the lumina into the garage (no security light on) when I pulled the powertrain out, so I know everything worked on it. The security light is on steadily (not blinking). Doesn't it stay on until the car starts though? I have not switched the vats box under the dash. Where is that? Is it the silver box on the left side under the dash that has 2 plugs going into it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 I'd also tripple verify your pinouts between the olds and lumina and make sure everything on the C100 matches. you will for sure want to run that data bus cable, for your own sanity in trying to sort out engine codes in the future. its a BITCH to get up in the dashboard but it can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venom Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 Thanks for the response. I'm suspicious of VATS too. I did run the Class II Serial data wire, but I don't have a scanner. Never had any issues with the Olds starting before this. I drove the lumina into the garage (no security light on) when I pulled the powertrain out, so I know everything worked on it. The security light is on steadily (not blinking). Doesn't it stay on until the car starts though? I have not switched the vats box under the dash. Where is that? Is it the silver box on the left side under the dash that has 2 plugs going into it? Might be a long shot, but turn the ignition on and leave it on for about 7 minutes. If the security lights stays on for those 7 minutes or so and then goes off, try to start it. Thats GM's way of reprogramming the key for vats. Every once in awhile I have to do that in the vert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevelle3504speed Posted June 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 I quadruple checked the pinouts. I have already gotten under the dash and run the serial II wire, and I didn't enjoy it (like you said). HVAC and other crap in the way. One other thing I thought of. There is a orange/black wire located in the C3 port of the C-100 in the Olds that's the park/neutral feed. Lumina has a gray 5V reference in that location. I just removed the 5V reference wire on the Lumina harness and left it empty. I'm still thinking it's a VATS issue maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 If the car thinks it is in anything other then neutral or park it won't crank. it sounds like that might be the cause of it. have you tried ghetto starting it by applying power to the starter engage wire? then if it runs ok i'd troubleshoot the transmission range switch. and the wiring involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevelle3504speed Posted June 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 Good point. Haven't done that. I'll give that a go and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS009 Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 I'm pretty sure it's somewhere on the passenger side of the dash but I can try and figure out where it's at when I'm by my books tomorrow. If that's the problem then your old key for the olds should work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevelle3504speed Posted June 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 I have one more question about VATS though. Since I am using my original VATS module (Olds) and I am using the PCM from the Lumina, wouldn't those two things be looking for 2 different resistances? For example, the resistance for my Olds key is 0.50. The resistance for the Lumina key is 7.47. Wouldn't the VATS module be looking for 0.50 ohms and the Lumina PCM be looking for 7.47 ohms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS009 Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 From what I know, the VATS box should be what determines the resistance you would use. I'm sure it sends a signal to the pcm so it can run it. The starter wire also runs through a relay that the vats box opens and closes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venom Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 If im not mistaken, the vats module controls everything. Once the module reads the correct value, it grounds the starter wire and sends the signal to the PCM to turn on the injectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 Also if you happen to have scans/links/copies of the c100 connector pinouts that would be awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevelle3504speed Posted June 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 Thanks for the feedback. Okay so I should use my original key then. Car still doesn't crank though. Here are my pinouts. [TABLE=width: 1000] [TR] [TD=colspan: 2]95 Olds Cutlass Supreme[/TD] [TD=colspan: 2]98 LTZ Lumina 3800[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]COLOR[/TD] [TD]FUNTION[/TD] [TD]PIN[/TD] [TD]FUNCTION[/TD] [TD]COLOR[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]-[/TD] [TD]-[/TD] [TD]A1[/TD] [TD]Change oil indicator signal[/TD] [TD]GRY[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]GRY[/TD] [TD]SWITCHD FEED FOR ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP[/TD] [TD]A2[/TD] [TD]Fuel pump motor feed [/TD] [TD]GRY[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]PNK[/TD] [TD]IGNTION SWITCH "IGN 1" FEED TO FUSE BLOCK[/TD] [TD]A3[/TD] [TD]Fuel tank pressure sensor signal[/TD] [TD]DK GRN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]RED[/TD] [TD]B+ FEED FROM UNDERHOOD ELECTRICAL CENTER #1 TO FUSE BLOCK[/TD] [TD]B1[/TD] [TD]Fuel gage sensor signal[/TD] [TD]PPL[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]WHT[/TD] [TD]CURISE CONTROL 'ENGAGED' SIGNAL TO PCM[/TD] [TD]B2[/TD] [TD]PCM sensor ground [/TD] [TD]BLK[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]PPL[/TD] [TD]THEFT DETERRENT RELAY-OUTPUT[/TD] [TD]B3[/TD] [TD]Starter solenoid feed [/TD] [TD]PPL[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]WHT[/TD] [TD]ELECTRONIC VARIABLE ORIFICE (EVO) FEED[/TD] [TD]C1[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]ORN/BLK[/TD] [TD]PARK/NEUTRAL SWITCH[/TD] [TD]C2[/TD] [TD]5 volt reference [/TD] [TD]GRY[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]LT. GRN[/TD] [TD]PCM A/C REQUEST INPUT FROM HEATER AND A/C CONTROL[/TD] [TD]C3[/TD] [TD]A/C switch output [/TD] [TD]LT GRN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]LT. GRN[/TD] [TD]BACKUP LAMP FEED[/TD] [TD]C4[/TD] [TD]Backup lamp feed [/TD] [TD]LT GRN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]DK BLU[/TD] [TD]FUEL ENABLE SIGNAL TO THEFT DETERRENT MODULE[/TD] [TD]D1[/TD] [TD]Theft deterrent fuel enable signal[/TD] [TD]DK BLU[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]WHT[/TD] [TD]STOP LAND SWITCH OUTPUT SIGNAL TO CRUISE CONTROL MODULE[/TD] [TD]D2[/TD] [TD]Stop lamp switch output [/TD] [TD]WHT[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]YEL/BLK[/TD] [TD]LOW COOLAND INDICATOR CONTROL[/TD] [TD]D3[/TD] [TD]Low engine coolant level indicator lamp feed [/TD] [TD]YEL/BLK[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]WHT[/TD] [TD]TACHOMETER OUTPUT FORM ICM[/TD] [TD]D4[/TD] [TD]Tachometer signal[/TD] [TD]WHT[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]LT.GRN/BLK[/TD] [TD]TRANS RANGE SWITCH OUTPUT TO AUTO DOOR LOCK MODULE[/TD] [TD]D5[/TD] [TD]Transaxle range switch feed - PARK[/TD] [TD]LT GRN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]BRN[/TD] [TD]ENGINE OIL LEVEL SENSOR OUTPUT[/TD] [TD]E1[/TD] [TD]Fused ignition feed [/TD] [TD]PNK[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]BRN[/TD] [TD]GENERATOR CONTROL GROUND TO VOLTS INDICATOR[/TD] [TD]E2[/TD] [TD]Charge indicator lamp feed [/TD] [TD]BRN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]BRN/WHT[/TD] [TD]LOW OIL LEVEL SWITCH OUTPUT[/TD] [TD]F1[/TD] [TD]Low oil level indicator lamp feed [/TD] [TD]BRN/WHT[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]TAN[/TD] [TD]OIL PRESSURE INDICATOR CONTROL[/TD] [TD]F2[/TD] [TD]Engine oil pressure indicator lamp feed [/TD] [TD]TAN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]BRN[/TD] [TD]CRUISE CONTROL CUT-OFF SWITCH-OUTPUT[/TD] [TD]G1[/TD] [TD]Cruise control release switch output [/TD] [TD]BRN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]DK GRN[/TD] [TD]COOLAND TEMP GAGE CONTROL[/TD] [TD]G2[/TD] [TD]Engine cooland Temp. Sensor[/TD] [TD]DK GRN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]GRY/BLK[/TD] [TD]RESUME/ACCES CRUISE CONTROL[/TD] [TD]H1[/TD] [TD]Cruise Control resume/acel switch signal[/TD] [TD]GRY/BLK[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]DK BLU[/TD] [TD]CRUISE CONTROL SET/COAST[/TD] [TD]H2[/TD] [TD]Cruise Control set/coast switch signal[/TD] [TD]DK BLU[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]BRN/WHT[/TD] [TD]SES LIGHT[/TD] [TD]H3[/TD] [TD]SES light[/TD] [TD]BRN/WHT[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]DK GRN[/TD] [TD]PCM VSS OUTPUT[/TD] [TD]H4[/TD] [TD]VSS[/TD] [TD]DK GRN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]GRY[/TD] [TD]CRUISE CONTROL SWITCH ON/OFF[/TD] [TD]H5[/TD] [TD]Cruise on/off[/TD] [TD]GRY[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]DK BLU[/TD] [TD]TRANS SELECT SWITCH-OUTPUT[/TD] [TD]J1[/TD] [TD]Fuel Gage Signal[/TD] [TD]ORN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]-[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]J2[/TD] [TD]Clas II serial data[/TD] [TD]PPL[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]PPL[/TD] [TD]TCC OUTPUT TO PCM[/TD] [TD]J3[/TD] [TD]stop lamp switch-tcc control[/TD] [TD]PPL[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]ORN [/TD] [TD]SERIAL DATA SIGNAL UART[/TD] [TD]J4[/TD] [TD]UART serial data [/TD] [TD]TAN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]RED[/TD] [TD]BATTERY FUSED FEED MAXIFUSE # 4[/TD] [TD]K1[/TD] [TD]fused battery feed[/TD] [TD]RED[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]ORN[/TD] [TD]IGNITION 3 FEED TO UNDERHOOD ELECTRICAL CENTER #1[/TD] [TD]K2[/TD] [TD]Fused ignition 3 feed[/TD] [TD]BRN[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]BRN[/TD] [TD]ELECTRONIC VARIABLE ORIFICE (EVO) OUTPUT[/TD] [TD]K3[/TD] [TD]-[/TD] [TD]-[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]RED[/TD] [TD]BATTERY FUSED FEED MAXIFUSE # 2[/TD] [TD]L1[/TD] [TD]EVAP canister vent valve solenoid output[/TD] [TD]WHT[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]YEL [/TD] [TD]TRANS RANGE SWITCH OUTPUT TO THEFT DETERRENT RELAY[/TD] [TD]L2[/TD] [TD]park/neutral feed to theft deterrent relay[/TD] [TD]YEL [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]PPL[/TD] [TD]FUSED FEED TO TRANSAXLE RANGE SWITCH[/TD] [TD]L3[/TD] [TD]fused ignition 0 feed[/TD] [TD]PPL[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevelle3504speed Posted June 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 It Runs! It was a stupid mistake on my part. I originally tried to crank the car with the new key I had made for it which had the correct resistance for the Lumina. Although I tried the original key, the car still wouldn't start because I didn't give the system enough time to reset. Anyway, I just went out and tried it with the original key and it cranked! I will top off the coolant and drive tomorrow. Thank you all very much for the information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pshojo Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 Post some pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 Awesome! Glad you got it figured out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevelle3504speed Posted June 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 I will post some pics soon. I am on a trip out west to Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks right now. You guys aren't missing much anyway. It's just an old basic 4 door bench seat column shift car. Car seems to run well. I need to get another exhaust. 3.1 exhaust to a little small and won't bolt up to the 3800 downpipe. Also need to address the SES light. I will post some pics when I get back. Thanks again for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pshojo Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 I like my 95 four door with 3800 swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imp558 Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 I had the exhaust issue too, mine was L36 to L67 swap and I used the L36 rear exhaust manifold because the L67 manifold had a MUCH bigger flange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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