dummkompf Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 hello, you may have seen I posted a while back about a lim gasket repair I was doing. I foolishly did just that without doing a compression test or checking for head gasket leaks because a mechanic had diagnosed it as the lim gasket. After getting everything up and running, there was still massive pressure building in the cooling system and exhaust fumes coming out the radiator so it became pretty obvious I had bad heads/head gaskets as well. So, I tore everything back down and brought the heads to a machine shop, and this is where I have questions. I've never used a machine shops services before so I wasn't exactly sure what to expect but I was not expecting what I got... he charged $40 to remove 2 broken exhaust studs (I don't have a good enough drill to get those bolts out, tried for a long time with the best bits i could find but i needed a higher speed drill), $50 to "degrease and resurface" (25 per head), and $60 to pressure test for cracks on both heads. After a few days he called and told me there aren't any cracks but there are some pits on the sealing surface that are too deep to be taken off with the mill so they needed to be welded, $40 per head bringing my grand total to $230. I had told him in the beginning not to do any work on the valve train even though I know it may need some, because I'm just trying to get the head leak repaired as cheaply as possible, not looking for any performance gains or anything like that. When I went to pick them up I was expecting to see some shiny, new looking heads that were spotlessly cleaned, but they still had all kinds of carbon caked on to the insides of the ports, and when I flipped it over to load it into my trunk a huge pile of dirt/powdered rust and metal shavings dumped out! there are still metal shavings all over it. I know I may have set my expectations a little too high as far as the cleaning but, shouldn't the machine shop be expected to clean up all the metal shavings? again I'm new to this so I don't know, that's just what I was assuming...... the other problem I have is the welding. I was expecting a perfect surface after that but there are still pits that were NOT milled out or welded (those spots are not by the cylinders so he told me to just use copper gasket sealer and it'll be fine), and the ones that were welded have excess metal that expands into the water jackets, very severely or even completely blocking the flow of coolant in a couple of spots. I'll attach pictures to show... the head gasket itself covers some of the water jackets but when i place it over the face of the head you can see which ones were blocked off that shouldn't have been Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dummkompf Posted May 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 (edited) so is this what I should've expected or is it completely hideous? should i take it back and have him clean up the welds out of the water jackets? or is it so bad that I should just stay far far away and never let him touch any of my cars parts again? I was thinking about using a file or dremel to clean it up myself but after using the dremel for about 30 seconds I realized it's way more of a pain in the ass than I thought it would be, and the dremel is too dangerous, too likely to cause accidental damage to other parts of the sealing surface... edit: in the last picture above you can see some scratch marks I made to mark where the water jacket openings in the head gasket line up with the head Edited May 6, 2013 by dummkompf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94 olds vert Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 Here are what my 3.1l heads looked liked after I had them rebuilt at a local shop here in town. They came back spotless and with no kind of any metal or rust or carbon in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 I would think a new core would have been the way to go. could maybe get a car for what you paid with perfect heads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurkey Posted May 6, 2013 Report Share Posted May 6, 2013 You got screwed on the cleaning charge, and you got half-assed welding repairs. All the rest seems legitimate. Fix the excessive welding intrusion on the coolant ports with a hand-held die grinder and rotary file--or, better yet--have the machine shop do it for you, for free, and with an apology and partial refund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dummkompf Posted May 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2013 TY for the response Schurkey and I was thinking the same thing. I just wanted to get a few opinions to make sure that's right before I go back there and complain about the quality of their work. As far as the excess welding, I decided to go ahead and take it out myself... was much easier when I used a drill to remove the biggest chunks and then a little rotary grinder to clean up the rest. While doing this I made a huge mistake though and did exactly what I was afraid of - I accidently let the griding bit slip out of the hole it was grinding and walk across the sealing surface. It left a scratch going from a cooling port to a combustion chamber which is very very small but it does catch my fingernail, I'm debating what to do about that now. I don't want this same shop to touch my heads again after seeing how crappy they did on the welds, so I think I may take it to a different shop to have it milled 1 more time and then ask the first shop pay for it plus a partial refund.... I'm also thinking about just using it as is so I don't have to worry about the second milling taking off too much or giving me some other problem. I think the scratch is small enough that the coating on the permatorque gaskets should be able to seal it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dummkompf Posted May 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2013 does this have to be resurfaced again? the 2nd picture makes it look worse but it's the same scratch... it's really barely noticeable at all when you run your finger over it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted May 7, 2013 Report Share Posted May 7, 2013 at this point you are taking a risk. nobody can tell you how much of a risk accurately. is the motor boosted? how much boost and how much cam is going to try and pass through that scratch? what kind of stress is the head expected to hold up to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dummkompf Posted May 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2013 No boost, it's just an old beater that I'm trying to get back to running condition. I'm not trying to restore/rebuild or even squeeze out extra performance, just trying to make it run. It's a 97 Lumina. I'm sure it'll run if I put it back together like this but I don't want it to start leaking again right away, either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbodieseasytocomeby Posted May 12, 2013 Report Share Posted May 12, 2013 i have been running cylinder head service for 15 yrs and let me just say its crap like this that makes me sick. he ran you over the coals because you were on a budget and you didnt know any better,so as a result he did what he wanted to do and not what you wanted. and the incomplete weld job is ridiculous sorry man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dummkompf Posted May 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 hey thanks for the feedback... do you think I can use this head without having it resurfaced again? or would it leak right away? I don't need it to last forever, just until the bottom end of the motor craps out... most of the valves leak a little bit also but it ran fine before I pulled it apart so as long as it runs just as well, without the head gasket leaking, I'll be happy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alec_b Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Those heads look terrible. We use a small cylinder head shop at my work simply because the guys is the BEST in town at what he does. I've never had a head/set of heads come back looking like that. And he charges about what you got charged. I'd be complaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurkey Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Another thought: Were the heads heat-treated after the welding? Aftermarket aluminum heads are typically heat-treated to T6; welding destroys this heat treatment. A welded head should be re-heat-treated. http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35814 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairdo12 Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 3100 heads are like $20 dollars at a junk yard. Basically they are throw away IMO. I would just find a donor and never waste my time or money with a machine shop if I just wanted to get the car running. Just look for a car with rear end damage and no coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant. Low milage is a plus but not absolutely necessary. I have found plenty of heads that once degreesed a little look fresh from the mill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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