No brakes after installing new calipers, rotors, pads and lines

[Myotis1134]

Hey everybody, got a head scratcher.

 

It was time to replace the front brakes (judging by the shudder). I decided to go all the way, and got new calipers, rotors, pads, and soft lines from Napa.

 

Everything seemed to go about as smoothly as I expect when working on the car, and the biggest PITA was when I had to grind a bit of metal from the bottom of the knuckle so that the bottom caliper bolt would line up with the bracket hole.

 

Cleaning the dirt and rust up took the most time to do, but when installing the new parts everything fit, didn't (appear to) leak and got torqued correctly. I bled each caliper until I saw clean solid fluid, and the damn pedal was squishy throughout and after the whole procedure. (By squishy I mean it went all the way down to the floor with slight resistance)

 

At this point I have no brake pressure, which I don't understand, since fluid was pushed from each caliper, so there is fluid getting to the calipers. I checked the fluid level before and after bleeding each caliper, so I know there was never a lack of brake fluid throughout the bleeding procedure.

 

I'm about to tear it all apart again and go over everything I installed. I'm just wondering if this sounds familiar to anyone.

 

p.s. 1991 Lumina Euro non-ABS.

 

p.s.s. I looked (not very hard) over the master cylinder and booster vacuum line and both looked fine i.e. no visible leaks, no loose lines. Will confirm that while going over everything.

[Cutlass350]

Just because you have fluid and are pushing fluid to all of the brake lines, that does not mean that their isn't air in the system.

 

You can have air in the MC, Delco ABS (you don't have one), the lines, the calipers. First thing to make sure is that the bleed screws are all near the top for any caliper or brake cylinder. If not, it's likely installed on the wrong side (if that's possible with your make/model).

 

The only correct way to bleed a brake system is by pressure bleeding - end of discussion. So, every other method that "works" is by luck - not by design or by being guaranteed from the manufacture.

 

Still, you may want to bleed the MC first and see if that solves your problem.

Then, especially for each rear line, push through at least 1 pint per line.

 

Manufactures also suggest/now-require a dual diaphragm pressure bleeder to prevent air/oil/humidity/etc from contaminating the brake fluid. In reality, many local garages don't use a dual diaphragm pressure bleeder. For one thing, the expected life expectancy of any car they service for brakes like that will likely not be "overly" effected by the small amount of brake fluid contamination.

 

I use a many quart K&D dual diaphragm pressure bleeder (~$250). One the of the best investments I ever did. But, I also needed the proper MC cap for a pressure bleeder and the MC, and those go for ~$40/each. I used to bleed the brakes on each car (3+ cars) every year. Too much hassle, not worth the benefit - other than my Mustang (because of the type of driving and brakes).

 

 

FWIW, the vacuum bleeders are the biggest *******ing joke there is. Same with the speedi-bleeders, one man bleeders, etc.

Note, that's not to say that some people don't get those methods to work.

But, if you find any garage/dealer that doesn't use a pressure bleeder, than I suggest that you RUN before that inbreed cretin goes all "Deliverance" on you.

 

 

Good Luck!

[Myotis1134]

Thanks Joe, you answered the question. Went back and looked the calipers over after reading your post. Guess what I found?

 

Obvious that the bleeder valve should be on top, now that you brought it to my attention.

[GOT2B GM]

Looks like you need to swap front calipers left to right

[Schurkey]

You can have air in the MC, Delco ABS (you don't have one), the lines, the calipers. First thing to make sure is that the bleed screws are all near the top for any caliper or brake cylinder. If not, it's likely installed on the wrong side (if that's possible with your make/model).

Excellent call. I'd have missed it.

 

The only correct way to bleed a brake system is by pressure bleeding - end of discussion. So, every other method that "works" is by luck - not by design or by being guaranteed from the manufacture.

 

FWIW, the vacuum bleeders are the biggest *******ing joke there is. Same with the speedi-bleeders, one man bleeders, etc.

Note, that's not to say that some people don't get those methods to work.

But, if you find any garage/dealer that doesn't use a pressure bleeder, than I suggest that you RUN before that inbreed cretin goes all "Deliverance" on you. ]

I'm in complete agreement with you in terms of vacuum bleeding, wasting money on "speed bleeders" and "Reverse Injection bleeders" and the crappy "garden sprayer" pressure bleeders. HOWEVER, I'm entirely satisfied with gravity bleeding when done after working on the brake system near the wheels. True enough, gravity bleeding doesn't work well after opening the brake system near the master cylinder, or when the system has lost a lot of fluid. The set-up time for a pressure bleeder is considerable, Sometimes, I'm DONE gravity bleeding in the time it takes to dig out the pressure tank, fit the master cylinder adapter, and then put it all away again.

 

Reverse-injection bleeding can be very useful but only if the entire brake system is COMPLETELY CLEAN (and that's pretty rare.) At least with disc brakes, there's no need to buy a special tool--just push the caliper piston back in. Reverse-injection bleeding MUST ALWAYS be followed by bleeding in the normal direction, or the wheel cylinder will trap a small amount of air.

 

...especially for each rear line, push through at least 1 pint per line.

Quantity is unimportant if you just bleed until the fluid coming from the bleeder screw runs CLEAN. Maybe that takes less than a pint...maybe more. Point being, don't measure the quantity of fluid used, verify the CONDITION of the fluid as it's REMOVED.

 

Manufactures also suggest/now-require a dual diaphragm pressure bleeder to prevent air/oil/humidity/etc from contaminating the brake fluid. In reality, many local garages don't use a dual diaphragm pressure bleeder. For one thing, the expected life expectancy of any car they service for brakes like that will likely not be "overly" effected by the small amount of brake fluid contamination.

You're thinking of modern, small brake boosters. No such thing as a DUAL-diaphragm brake bleeder. Single-diaphragm pressure bleeders have been the industry standard since Fido was a pup. I think my old one is a KD, the new one is a Branick.

 

http://www.branick.com/products-brake-bleeder.php

Edited August 2, 2012 by Schurkey

[Schurkey]

I had to grind a bit of metal from the bottom of the knuckle so that the bottom caliper bolt would line up with the bracket hole.

 

Went back and looked the calipers over after reading your post. Guess what I found?

 

Obvious that the bleeder valve should be on top, now that you brought it to my attention.

First Guess: Having to grind the knuckle was your warning that you were installing the calipers incorrectly.

[Myotis1134]

True dat Schurkey, unfortunately I think what happened was that I was so worried about 1. making sure the important areas were clean of dirt and rust, and then 2. getting the project done quickly so I could study for a final the next day. Also I was stressing about not cracking the hard lines and getting the bolts all torqued correctly. Ended up missing the big picture, but at least the situation was simple to fix once the problem was pointed out, and I got a 85% on my final the next day (had to drive my uncle's cobalt ss though, it was rough).

 

Yeah the grinding thing, I guess I thought that the calipers had a slightly thicker casing than the ones they were replacing. Live and learn.

 

So I got my pressure back after installing the calipers on the correct sides. Went ahead and bled about a quart for each line, including the rears. Stiffened up nicely, and the shudder went away.

 

When planning the project, I priced a couple bleeder tools, but they were either too expensive or too cheap, so I went to Home Depot and bought a drill-actuated pump, about $20 worth of fittings that reduced the inlet and outlet from 3/4" to 1/8" o.d. Got a couple 10 ft. rolls of 1/8" tubing and a couple hose clamps. I figured I could achieve a "el cheapo's" version of what they do at the lube-shops - suck the air/fluid out of the bleeder, then let the outlet line pump the fluid back into the master cylinder after removing enough to ensure all new brake fluid in the system. Some old fluid would be left of course, unless you could do all four lines simultaneously, but in theory you could just let the pump run for a while, and eventually the suction would get all the air out of the line without draining the m.s.

 

I measured the length of the line on either side of the pump so that there wouldn't be a ton of excess fluid in the pump and line between the bleeder and the m.s., but allowed me to position the pump where I could reach it and keep an eye on the return (at the m.s.). Thing worked great when I tried it on the reversed caliper setup, pulled lots of old fluid out (which I dumped) until it all ran clear. Didn't use it after switching the calipers around, just stuck a piece of tubing over the bleeder and had my sister pumping the brakes while I opened and shut the valves.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Myotis1134

[Cutlass350]

You're thinking of modern, small brake boosters. No such thing as a DUAL-diaphragm brake bleeder. Single-diaphragm pressure bleeders have been the industry standard since Fido was a pup. I think my old one is a KD, the new one is a Branick.

 

Good catch! Opps, I meant "dual chamber" (one for air, the other for the brake fluid) - single diaphragm.

This is the one that I've had and use:

7-Qt. Diaphragm-Type Brake Bleeder Tank Tank has 10 1/2in. hose with quick-coupler and shutoff valve.

 

 

As I mentioned, I found that using the universal MC adapters or modifying caps is a pain and may result in leaking brake fluid from the cap. :-P

 

Here is a place that makes good MC cap adapters:

http://www.powerprobe.com/BBAdapters.html

 

I think this is the one for my Olds Cars:

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Probe-BA04-Bleeder-Adapter/dp/B0037668CI

 

 

 

IMHO, a pressure bleeder and cap are definitely worth the money! They also are great for finding most leaks. Note, the system is only pressurized to ~15lbs for a pressure bleeder, and some leaks may only occur under "full" pressure (1000+ PSI).

 

 

 

Many people use and like the "Motive Brake Bleeder" system. IMHO, the Motive system is fine, but I still strongly suggest getting a special MC cap like the one I listed above.

http://motiveproducts.3dcartstores.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-Power-Bleeder-trucks/dp/B000Q6QWSC/

http://www.amazon.com/Motive-0101-Pro-Power-Bleeder/dp/B000TYJEWW/

Edited August 4, 2012 by Cutlass350

[Cutlass350]

So I got my pressure back after installing the calipers on the correct sides. Went ahead and bled about a quart for each line, including the rears. Stiffened up nicely, and the shudder went away.

Glad you got the brakes working!

 

I like to say push a pint through each line just to make sure that the air is out. From being on the car forums for 10+ years (since 1999 on the Stang forums), I noticed that many people will see "clear fluid" for a few seconds, then think that is fine (even for an completely empty rear brake line system) and stop there. The result is often soft brakes.

 

I typically do at least 1/2->1 pint on each wheel, and do all of the wheels at least 3x times. I find it faster to do it that way, and then it "just works".

 

 

BTW, putting the calipers on the wrong side is common when people don't realize that there is a difference. Seems like that issue comes up at least once a week on the Mustang forums (more younger kids buying fix-up cars).

Edited August 4, 2012 by Cutlass350