5 speed swap

[GTP091]

Started tearing into this last night. I got to the point where is should come apart and it seems the input shaft is stuck. I can separate the trans by about 1/4” from the block but it feels as though it’s trying to spring back in place. My service manual doesn’t mention anything about this. Anybody have any suggestions? It’s all still sitting on the subframe but I don’t think the subframe has to be removed from the assembly as you should be able to just remove the trans to change the clutch out right?

[55trucker]

This trans is a pull-type clutch release arm, it uses a conventional fork arm to actuate the release bearing, the direction of the arm is the same as the old conventional mechanical linkage mechanisms, but the slave cylinder direction is reversed when compared to a typical hydraulic push type release bearing.

 

One has to slide off the clutch fork from the release bearing, one gets at it thru the access hole in the casing, (that black plastic shield you see next to the slave cylinder location), when you *unclip* the fork from the bearing the case should separate, the release bearing is held in place to the clutch by a wedge collar that is snapped into the centre of the clutch assembly, one has to carefully separate the bearing from the collar with a screwdriver being careful to not break any of the tabs.

Edited October 22, 2018 by 55trucker

[GTP091]

Thanks for the info I’ll give it a try tonight. The clutch fork just flops around in there no matter if I pull on the case or not so wasn’t sure how it was causing trouble. 

[GTP091]

Got the bugger off the engine.  I had to remove the lower inspection cover to get it off. Sometimes the obvious things stare you right in the face. Now need to clean up the rear of the block and remove/replace  the rear crank seal before I get it on the stand. My lisle shaft seal puller isn’t strong enough to get it so need to try a regular type seal puller which is not where it supposed to be.

Edited October 25, 2018 by GTP091

[GTP091]

Got the rear of the engine all cleaned up and squeaky clean. It really looks good under all the greasy sludge and grime. Also found my big seal puller and got the crank seal out easy. I’m wondering what the 3 over size set screws are for. Is the 3bolt cover an inspection cover of some kind? I’m inclined to leave them be but if it’s a check while your in there then let’s do it. 

[55trucker]

You referring to these three plugs?

 

those are oil gallery plugs, the other three bolts retaining that cap are the cam thrust cover bolts.

[GTP091]

Ya those are the ones I'm wondering on. They have red thread locker on the plugs so I'm inclined to leave em alone. Any reason to remove the cam thrust cover for inspection purposes? I think not especially if there's nothing serviceable there. 

I did get the rear of the engine repainted tonight and the new seal back in. Up on the stand tomorrow night for further seal replacement and cleaning and painting. 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by GTP091

[19Cutlass94]

If they’re not leaking or damaged, I’d leave em alone.

[GTP091]

Well here’s a nut twister for you. After sitting for a year and a half this engine fired right up; I checked that out before I bought it. It was rough, but seemed it only needed a tune up. The plug boots were oily and plugs in bad shape, old gas etc.  I wasn’t overly concerned. Did a compression test on the even cylinders last night and got as follows. 100 # 2, 30 #4, 150 # 6.  So seems I’ve got stuck rings on 2, 6. Will check the odds out later today. Any tips or tricks other than dumping acetone or sea foam in the cylinder to break the rings free?  Assuming this is the problem. That’s the only suggestion I’ve seen on the inter webs so far. If this doesn’t work a complete rebuild might be in order i was really hoping to avoid that. I will need to seriously decide if I’ll just use the lifters from this engine in my current engine in the GTP. Or if I continue a rebuild. Essentially I have two engines, one with a bad bottom end, and one with a noisy top end (lifters). The original in the GTP runs like a top and has new bits all over and a ported intake so all that is going on whichever I use. The more obvoius choice seem to be a lifter swap. Unless I can get the compression fixed up without a tear down/

Edited October 29, 2018 by GTP091

[55trucker]

For a well used engine #6 seems to be *normal*, 4 is not, 2 is low. My suggestion is to fab a spark plug adapter to screw into the cylinder heads and feed compressed air down into each cylinder one at a time with each piston at TDC. Pull off the oil fill cap & listen carefully & feel for compressed air coming back up thru the crankcase & out the oil filler cap.

If there is a sticking or a burnt exhaust valve that is open do the same at the tailpipe as well & listen for air escaping thru the exhaust , if an intake is open listen at the throttle body.

If you've done a compression test then the engine is still in the car?.......and runable? 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by 55trucker

[GTP091]

B

46 minutes ago, 55trucker said:

For a well used engine #6 seems to be *normal*, 4 is not, 2 is low. My suggestion is to fab a spark plug adapter to screw into the cylinder heads and feed compressed air down into each cylinder one at a time with each piston at TDC. Pull off the oil fill cap & listen carefully & feel for compressed air coming back up thru the crankcase & out the oil filler cap.

If there is a sticking or a burnt exhaust valve that is open do the same at the tailpipe as well & listen for air escaping thru the exhaust , if an intake is open listen at the throttle body.

If you've done a compression test then the engine is still in the car?.......and runable? 

 

No it’s suspended from a lift definitely not in the car. Not a single cylinder is even close to the same as another on it. I’m starting to think I’m not getting a proper seal on the tester. Based on the numbers I’ve got there’s no way the engine would have ran. The engine actually ran really well with a bit of a miss. I think I’m overreacting to a bad test here will give it another go and see what happens. 

[Imp558]

A leakdown tester is worth owning. Compression tests are really crude in comparison to put it gently. 

[GTP091]

It seems not much can be done at this point to get the engine back to correct pressures across all cylinders. Some guys say marvel mystery oil poured on top of the pitons will release the rings, or atf mixed with acetone as well.  I'm reluctant to try this as it won’t remove the crude that locked the rings in the first place if it is even the rings. Could be valves or mix of both. I’d hate to get it decent only to have a partial stuck ring score the cylinder wall.  If I’m in this deep should I just keep going is the question I’m asking myself.  This looks more and more like the 5 speed swap will have to wait and ill be starting an engine rebuild thread. I took the plenum off last night and all looks good so far. If I do go with an engine rebuild I’ll certainly need some advice along the way.

[55trucker]

So give us some background on the car/powertrain that you picked up.......(we ARE discussing the recent purchase you made?)

 

how many kilometers (CAN) use on that engine?

 

if indeed the rings are seized that suggests to me that the vehicles history is not necessarily a good one.

what sort of lack of maintenance has caused the rings seize to begin with?

if you do decide to *overhaul* the engine ...how far are you willing to go?

depending the on the kilometers use....if it is high then a proper block/bottom end rebuild is on the list of needing to be done, if the engine was neglected I personally wouldn't  consider anything less than a complete tear down,

 

where the block is concerned you do Not want to tighten up the top end and leave the bottom end untouched. One would turn the crank, consider resizing the rods, bore the cylinders, deck the block, basically a proper rebuild. Same approach goes for the heads. If the cyl walls are tapered tossing in a new set of rings doesn't buy you much, & doing so while not looking after the crank could see the bottom end go out on you.

 

 

 

[jimmyfloyd]

Did you do a leak down test or retry the compression tests? Last you posted was that you thought your test might be flawed. 

If it were me, i would do the test 3-5 times and see if there is consistency in the numbers you get for each Cyl. That way it can help determine if your test is fine or flawed. 

 

It seems like there is some more troubleshooting you could do before tearing it down further, and without knowing what you've done since the previous post, we can only guess that you may be reacting to potentially bad data and might start tearing down things you don't need to. 

 

Can you provide a synopsis of what you have done to determine you have stuck rings? What tests were performed, the results of each, etc. If you did only check the even bank, then you only completed half of the testing. 

[GTP091]

The engine came from the 92se with LQ1 and 284 in it. I bought it specifically for the engine and as a guinea pig to pull out the 5speed parts from. My gtp engine has some litter tick and considering new lifters are worth what I paid for the entire car made sense to me.  It has 180k kms on it and started right up after sitting for a year. Oil level and oil pressure were good. It ran quite good no smoke no unusual litter tick.   

I tested the compression 3x since my first post about it and getting reasonable consistent results. 2 at 150 2 at 40; 2 at 100-120

so basically not good at all. 

Im just guessing its stuck rings from sitting but could easily be the valves.

the plenum has been off relatively recently the upper intake gasket wasn’t stuck on to bad and there was rtv around the coolant passage of the throttle body, yet they didn’t change the oring

Edited November 3, 2018 by GTP091

[GTP091]

I cleaned the ignition up for a spare. A little ocd and it’s nice and clean ready to go in my GTP electrical tote likely never to be used again. Or what I told my wife as I washed it in the kitchen sink “just in case I need it and they’re pricey.”

And since I’m having an engine dilemma regarding the usability of ole red LQ1; I’ll be putting a hold on my engine woes posts so as not to fill up my 5 speed swap thread with non swap discussion. I’ll create a seperate thread for the rebuild or not to rebuild.

 

[GTP091]

Got the rear cam cover off last night. One set of cam lobes I can see looks really good so that’s a good sign. A mouse had made a nest on top of the block at some point so that made some extra cleaning work. I need to make a tray of some kind underneath on the stand legs to catch the goo when I clean the block. It’s pretty nasty up top. The cam cover seals were hardened so was leaking oil pretty good certainly the source of the mess. 

Edited November 5, 2018 by GTP091

[GTP091]

Got the intake degreased and scraped. I need to look into getting rid of the TB coolant run I know it’s done as a mod just don’t have a link there yet.  I do have a new thermostat housing to go on that is powdercoated.  Also does it make sense to change the coolant temp sensor on the end or is it one of those no wear things that just quit when they quit and could go on forever. i

[ss427]

I’ve never had that coolant temp sensor go bad. I always reuse the one that is in there if it is working.

[Imp558]

I'm on the other side of the fence on that one.

IAT and CTS are both pretty important factors in a ton of tables in the PCM so if they look like they've been around a bit and they're easily accessible I replace them.

Of course a quality one should be used or we can do more harm than good. 

Alternatively they can be tested with a non contact thermometer and a multimeter but they cost like $15 so....

[55trucker]

GM made used of a relatively stable scale for their temp sending units of that period. If you feel that either of the two sending units may be off here is a chart one can use for testing the units.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by 55trucker

[GTP091]

Thanks for the chart. I’ll check the reading to see if it’s in spec.

[55trucker]

12 minutes ago, GTP091 said:

Thanks for the chart. I’ll check the reading to see if it’s in spec.

My ECM sender is spot on but my Gauge sender allows the gauge to read on the low side, at 190 F (260 ohms) the gauge sender resistance reads as tho the temp is 150F  (575 ohms) .

[GTP091]

Cleaned the plenum up last night. Certainly needs a new PCV valve, and related hoses. The brake booster hose feels good but was loose on the plenum side as the speed clamp couldn’t squeee it tighter I’d like to replace it as well if I can get one.  I’ll need to test the tps as well.