Struts too long?

[NinetyQ]

I got new KYB Excel-G strut cartridges to put in my '96 Grand Prix SE coupe and was excited to get the job done and feel the difference in ride quality. The old ones came out (not without a bit of a fight and some PB Blaster, but other than that, not too bad), and the new ones went in. First thing I noticed was that the strut rod came up a few inches too high. I didn't think too much of it though until I mounted it in place and just had to get the rubber top mount down into its hole and realized that the nut holds the rod up, not down. The rod was already too high, which means it wants to force its way out of the hole, if I can even get it down there, which I can't.

 

So... do I have the wrong strut? Should I jack the car up? I'm a little confused. I ordered the part from RockAuto, and the packing slip, order, and everything seem to have the correct part number. I haven't looked at the struts themselves though because they are in the car (with a hood that won't close).

 

Help?

[white96supreme]

Need pics to see what's going on

[Gsxperience]

-put mount on rod.

-put nut on over mount and tighten to torque spec

-push mount down into its spot.

-put cover on over top of mount.

-torque cover bolts.

 

DO NOT FOR ANY REASON JACK UP THE CAR UNTIL THE COVER IS BACK ON OVER THE MOUNT. Without the mount bolted onto the strut and the cover over the top of it, the strut is not being held in center and can also drop down far enough and the spring will shoot out of place. And these spring pack enough punch to easily take off your head. If your lucky and not hurt, its still the extra hassle of using spring compressors and putting it all back together.

 

I learned all of this the hard way, so take it from me and go get yourself a Haynes manual. Its $20 but it will more than pay for itself in no time.

[NinetyQ]

-put mount on rod.

-put nut on over mount and tighten to torque spec

-push mount down into its spot.

-put cover on over top of mount.

-torque cover bolts.

 

 

This is what I have right now. I'm fighting the strut the whole way, and the original struts didn't come up this high even fully extended. Are you sure it's still just a matter of manhandling it into place? I wrestled with it for 20 minutes or so and couldn't get either side in. I can still feel it in my arms and abs too, so it's not like I just wasn't trying. The rubber mount fits very tightly into its spot, so overcoming that tightness while compressing the strut is a huge task. Not to mention it's not really perfectly aligned with the hole, but whatever problem that might be, I don't have the time or money to troubleshoot it right now. I need to be able to get the struts in place if I can. One of the old ones separated and is now entirely unusable.

[white4d96]

I had the same thing happen. Wrestle the bastard in there and be ready to throw the strut cap on there as soon as you get it where it needs to go. It's a pain in the ass.

[white96supreme]

Put some grease on it and shove it in. Wow, that sounds bad!!!

[Gsxperience]

The long rod thats threaded on the end that came in your kit you rented can be screwed onto the top of the rod for more control of it. Then you can just torque the mount nut after you get it in place.

[oldmangrimes]

I had a similar problem with my 95 Cutlass. I had to lay on top of the engine and use my body weight (yay for donuts?) to help force it into place. Once I figured out the exact angle to push it down it wasn't so bad, but I spent a lot of time pushing with no result. One side went in much easier than the other, the difficult strut seemed to be slightly mis-aligned with the hole, like your picture. The instructions I had said to remove the hood (which I didn't) to get a better angle to push the strut down. If all else fails for you, I would remove the hood and then you could probably just stand on the strut and it would go down in place.

 

Oh, and the ride was much better afterwards, the effort was definitely worth it. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[GP1138]

This reminds me of the fun I had doing the fuel pump on the '97. Thanks for the picture! I'll be doing this myself at some point.

[Crazy K]

JESUS!!!! (where???)

 

I never remove the hood..

climbing on top of the engine makes the car dip...

Jacking.....

 

YOU CANNOT JACK THE CAR WHILE NO STRUT CARTRIDGE IS INSTALLED.

The strut cartridge is what holds the struts unit all together. You can cause the spring to unseat (and kick out the knuckle assembly, damage vehicle, shoot spring, maim or kill someone) if the full weight of the car is removed without the struts installed, which serves to keep the knuckle assembly and spring in alignment. Confusion about the reason why you are not supposed to jack the car makes this harder than is should be.

 

YOU CAN CAREFULLY JACK THE CAR IF THE STRUT CARTRIDGES ARE FULLY INSTALLED WITH THE RUBBER BUSHING INSTALLED ON THE CARTRIDGE TOP, if you are doing so because you are having difficulty getting the mounts to seat. READ IN FULL FIRST:

 

The cartridge fully installed will prevent the strut from experiencing dangerous kick out. Care must still be exercised at all times to prevent the strut shaft from hitting the lip of the opening which could ruin the strut. Once you are at the point where the cartridge is fully installed and the rubber bushing is tight*, you should lubricate the rubber (silicone grease, tire shine, dish soap, etc) so that it slips into position easier. Using a tool to turn the top nut, try rotating the bushing while forcing it to center in the opening and pressing down. (I use a large impact socket on a 1/2 inch drive ratchet) Spin it while pressing downward until it seats if possible be careful not to tear the rubber on the mount(not an issue if centered), and make sure that the notch in the rubber is guided to meet the notch in the upper strut piece once fully seated. This is where I often have to jack at, as a new struts will pop out faster than I can install the plate. If the mount will not stay in place because it shoots up, carefully raise the car a little (lets say an inch per attempt) and repeat the procedure until the mount seats and stays where you can get the cover on. Myself, I will jack the car the moment I have the bushings installed, stopping when the bushing contacts the opening. I then center and start them into the hole while spinning to make it quick and easy, but then, I've done a many struts and know the limit of what I can do... so take it easy like the first times as I described above.

 

 

When you are doing struts, you should only be servicing one side at a time to completion before starting the other side. (ie have the first sides cover plate reinstalled and all, though it's harder with a vert STB, but then, spare plates are easy to come by and you can swap the STB in place later)

 

 

*If the rubber bushing still spins freely around the top of the strut shaft and the strut shaft nut verified to be tight, you need to add an appropriate washer to the top of the strut cartridge, between the bushing and nut. I've had to do this with Gabriel struts, but not KYBs, use grade 8 hardware.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Crazy K

[NinetyQ]

Hey everyone, thanks for all the help! Brace yourself for an extreme noob question.

 

So, I have a bunch of oil in both strut towers. I haven't seen anything yet about oil needing to be there, so should I remove it? The left side strut came apart when I removed it, but the right side one appears to be okay, but there is oil in both.

[Crazy K]

Hey everyone, thanks for all the help! Brace yourself for an extreme noob question.

 

So, I have a bunch of oil in both strut towers. I haven't seen anything yet about oil needing to be there, so should I remove it? The left side strut came apart when I removed it, but the right side one appears to be okay, but there is oil in both.

 

Even with the replacement gas charged struts, it is normal to have oil in there. It serves as a buffer to dampen noise and movement. The right amount of oil covers the new strut cartridge body about 75% of the way to the top. I personally remove the old smelly oil and dump new heavy weight oil in there, but there is no actual specification for what oil should be in there, nor does it matter what type or condition as long as there is some, if you are using aftermarket units... If you were using the OEM type unit, the assumption I have is it is actual hydraulic fluid.

[carkhz316]

I've never heard of adding oil. Everything I know is that the oil is from the strut that has leaked over time. Every service procedure indicates to clean/ remove old oil that has leaked into the strut before installing a new cartridge.

[white96supreme]

I used transmission fluid in mine when I changed my struts, pulled that nasty oil out and added about 2 ounces to both sides.

[NinetyQ]

Again, I just want to thank you guys for responding and giving me ideas and encouragement. I'd also like to thank RockAuto's service department for their timely email response after they contacted KYB on my behalf and confirmed that the struts and the problem I was having with them were normal.

 

I spent a couple hours tonight wrestling them into place. I decided to do it late at night since I don't really need sunlight to do it and it's been so hot lately that it only got down to 82 at 3 a.m. Anyway, the driver side strut slipped into place just fine once I greased it up and rocked it back and forth a little bit. Compared to the passenger side strut, that one gave me few problems at all. The passenger side one was a massive pain though. It simply would not go in. I used all the leverage and weight I could muster on my own, and couldn't get it to slip into place. Both struts leaned in toward the engine, and pulling that one toward the center of the mount was much more difficult than the other one. I ended up having to use the scissor jack in the trunk to slowly and carefully lift the car up a little bit. This worked to an extent. It got the rubber mount to finally go into the hole, but it wouldn't compress it all the way down. In hindsight, the other rubber part (jouncer?) was possibly stuck in there, but I got the top cover on and compressed it all down.

 

Now that I've realized that piece might be stuck, I'm wondering if I should redo it. My right shoulder is going to be screaming no by tomorrow morning. It was already painful today and yesterday, and now I've probably strained it some more.

[carkhz316]

Glad to hear you are getting it figured out.

 

And to those who add oil:

[Crazy K]

Glad to hear you are getting it figured out.

 

And to those who add oil:

Let me one up you on that...

 

The official instructions ARE to have about 2 ounces of oil in there as a buffer. as tested, it covers 75% of the strut body when the new style strut is installed. READ YOUR SERVICE MANUAL.

 

 

 

One thing you should be very careful with, make sure you are not folding and or tearing the rubber of the bushings as you install them. And don't be affraid to raise the car while you manhandle the strut to center it(centering is much more important that downward force). Let me give you an easier task... if you have a friend, have them jack the car while you hold the strut centered so that it seats, and remember rotate the strut mount as it slides into the hole for ease of slippage(don't forget lube!). If you do it this way, you want to raise the car until the bushing begins to seat, but not so far as the studs at the top come loose of the body.

[carkhz316]

I've either been looking at incorrect repair/ services manuals, or adding oil is per certain strut manufacturers because I just double checked a few of them and they both indicate to:

 

"

Install the self contained replacement cartridge. Secure the closure nut using strut cap nut wrench J-35671, or equivalent. Tighten to 82 ft. lbs. (110 Nm). The

cartridge does not need oil added unless specified

. If oil is not supplied with the cartridge, add the specified amount of hydraulic jack oil."

 

 

I would take this to mean this a manufacturer specific instruction, and not universal to all of them. The last 3 cars I've done never specified adding oil. This is where I was drawing my opinion/ confusion in regards to adding oil.

[jman093]

The old GM guys at the (now non-gm) dealer I work at once told me the shock provides its own oil. Remove all the old stuff and the new shock will spew out new oil once it starts being used. I always thought it was strange for a "leaking" shock to be a good thing, but that's just what I was told.

[carkhz316]

Thats odd, but thanks for the tip. It does seem to relate to the idea about the addition of oil being manufacturer specific