MTX 9500 Box Build help

[Bostons94Vert]

So i got my hands on a Mtx 9510-44 for 250 bucks and im extremely curious as to how it will sound in the Cutty. Im going to be powering it with my rf t1000...does anyone have any experience with this sub? If so should i go sealed or ported? Any help is greatly appreciated

[xtremerevolution]

So i got my hands on a Mtx 9510-44 for 250 bucks and im extremely curious as to how it will sound in the Cutty. Im going to be powering it with my rf t1000...does anyone have any experience with this sub? If so should i go sealed or ported? Any help is greatly appreciated

 

Post the T/S parameters and I'll design you a box.

 

What are you looking for? Raw SPL? A bit of SQ? What are your space constraints? What tools do you have available to you?

[Garrett Powered]

I would always go sealed.

 

that's just me.

[xtremerevolution]

I would always go sealed.

 

that's just me.

 

Some subs end up having a very high Qtc that will make them sound terrible in a sealed box. Some subs are designed specifically to be used only in vented boxes. You can't just put any sub you want in a sealed box and expect it to work.

[Garrett Powered]

certain subs should not be selected, that is all.

 

In order to not sound like a dick because I actually am not worried if you like ported enclosure designs.

 

go ahead and do whatever you like. I am open to that. not everyone wants or needs that lower extension and power handling that come with the sealed design. most SQ subs that are designed with the best patented technologies (JL is the best in the world when it comes to this) would be fine ported or sealed. so that argument is not valid to a JL audio customer anyway.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Garrett Powered

[xtremerevolution]

certain subs should not be selected, that is all.

 

In order to not sound like a dick because I actually am not worried if you like ported enclosure designs.

 

go ahead and do whatever you like. I am open to that. not everyone wants or needs that lower extension and power handling that come with the sealed design. most SQ subs that are designed with the best patented technologies (JL is the best in the world when it comes to this) would be fine ported or sealed. so that argument is not valid to a JL audio customer anyway.

 

You get better low end extension with a correctly tuned ported box than you ever will with a sealed box. It's called augmented output. JL is not the best in the world when it comes to the "best patented technologies." Maybe the best that you know of, but certainly not the best in the world. Ever heard of Acoustic Elegance? When you can write me a summary of how their lambda motor and the XBL^2 motor work and what the differences between them are, we'll be able to talk about which subs are better for which application.

 

I will admit that they did a decent job at designing most of their subs with a Qts of ~.45, which allows them to function well in both sealed and ported boxes.

[Garrett Powered]

what else can I say except the above statement is false in your first sentence. why you reinforce your lack of knowledge in saying that all the time when I believe you know yourself and I have proven it to you. actually I had you prove it to everyone earlier so whatever. I guess you just have a failure to face the facts because I guess you are scared, but there is no need to be...

 

when you port a box you cut off part of the sound. and cutt off part of the amplified sound. that is not what I meant by bass extension. this will be the end of the discussion.

[xtremerevolution]

Yeah, you're absolutely correct. You cut off the sound below the tuning frequency, which with a well designed ported box is somewhere under 25hz. Even synthetic bass doesn't dig that deep dude. The only shit that plays that low is pipe organ music. Are you jamming to pipe organ music in your car? If not, there is zero need to go below ~28hz. Absolutely zero! Hell, the human ear cannot physically hear a frequency below 20hz, and 25hz is BARELY audible as a frequency. It is absolutely useless for us to be able to reproduce it.

 

You missed an extremely important little detail where I said "properly designed."

 

I would model it for you to prove my point, but then you'd just shove it back in my face and tell me that my simulations are all wrong and they're useless and that's not what you actually hear in real life, so I won't waste my time.

[Bostons94Vert]

Thanks for the reply and sorry for the thread going astray. Here are the t/s parameters for 9500. Ive been running a 12 inch L7 lately and ive been thinking more about sound quality over pure spl lately and wanted to see if the 9500 could help. Id say im looking for a 70/30 split mostly SQ. I dont use the trunk at all so whatever space is needed with the top down just incase. As far as tools i can usually get my hands on anything needed. Thanks again for the help

Mtx 9500 parameters.doc

[runt]

Bostons: You are fine. Not your fault about the thread going off topic.

 

Xtreme and Garrett: We get it. You guys will never agree on anything. Post your opinions/recommendations and walk away. Stop dragging EVERY thread like this down.

[xtremerevolution]

Thanks for the reply and sorry for the thread going astray. Here are the t/s parameters for 9500. Ive been running a 12 inch L7 lately and ive been thinking more about sound quality over pure spl lately and wanted to see if the 9500 could help. Id say im looking for a 70/30 split mostly SQ. I dont use the trunk at all so whatever space is needed with the top down just incase. As far as tools i can usually get my hands on anything needed. Thanks again for the help

 

Wow, that sub looks terrible. Very low efficiency, which means you need to give it a lot of power (and therefore increase distortion) to get any real output out of it, and that Qts is VERY high, which will make it sound terrible in a sealed box.

 

If you want SQ, sell it and I'll make you some recommendations for an affordable SQ sub based on what you get for the 9500.

[xtremerevolution]

Bostons: You are fine. Not your fault about the thread going off topic.

 

Xtreme and Garrett: We get it. You guys will never agree on anything. Post your opinions/recommendations and walk away. Stop dragging EVERY thread like this down.

 

Here's the small problem with this. You make it look as if I don't agree. It's not about agreeing whether or not blue is prettier than green or water tastes better than cranberry juice. It's more a matter of science, such as it's better to put oil back into your crankcase after changing your oil, not water. When it comes to designing sub boxes, there is a right and a wrong way to do it, there are certain facts that cannot be argued against. It's not a matter of simple disagreeing, but providing valid and truthful information.

 

The problem is that I'm being argued with on topics that are a matter of fact and aren't open to interpretation or opinion. This is science, not science fiction.

[runt]

It's 100% obvious you guys just simply can't agree EVEN IF IT IS PROVEN SCIENCE, MADE UP, WHATEVER....It just isn't going to happen. I'm tired of the fights in these threads because it's been 75% of them lately.

 

I'm not asking/arguing who is right or wrong here. For all I care you both could be dead wrong. It's a matter of I'm tired of the threads going to hell in a handbag because of BOTH of you. Sometimes it's easier to just post and walk away rather than argue no matter who much "science" is behind it.

 

So. Not sure if the other mods will agree with me here but the next time I see you guys going at it in a thread like this it's going to be at least a 3 day ban.

[xtremerevolution]

I just realized you said you already bought it, so telling you to sell it won't be much use, lol.

 

Go ported. Let me know if you want me to design you a box for it.

[Bostons94Vert]

yea i already bought it so its worth putting it in a nice box and giving it a test ya know. the sub is 400 new and i paid 250 so i can always sell it later if i dont like it lol. If you have some free time and feel like putting something together i would greatly appreciate it Xtreme. Thank You again

[xtremerevolution]

I will say one thing that I like about the sub; a high roll surround. That gives the sub a 356 cm^2 cone area. Most high excursion 10" subs are in the 310-320 cm^2 range. High roll surrounds generally increase the available cone area. In the case of the IDMax's proprietary surround, the 10" sub has 399 cm^2 of cone area. More cone area = more SPL, or more SPL at lower distortion levels.

 

Now, I'll try to explain the problem a bit. A high Qts means it won't work well in a sealed box because it will sound boomy, uncontrolled, and like crap. Basically, you'll have no real bottom end below 40hz. It just rolls off way to sharply. The only other option is a vented box.

 

The problem with a vented box is that the Fs of the sub is high; very high in fact for a 10" sub. The Fs is 41.1hz, which is normally what I'd expect to see in an 8" sub. The Fs on my IDMax10 is 20.4hz IIRC. Big difference there. Now, the reason why this high Fs is an issue is because it causes problems when we want to run a ported box. If we tune too high, we get a general peak and it becomes an SPL box. If we tune too low below the tuning frequency, it just starts to look all sorts of wrong. So, if you want this to sound any resemblance of "good," you're going to have to build it exactly as I tell you or it will just sound bad.

 

We'll tune extra low to get that tuning peak out of the audible range. Then, we'll enable your "infrasonic filter" which is a fancy term for a high pass filter. In this case, it's a 4th order butterworth at 28hz, which I can also model with my software. Getting that peak out of the audible range also means we get group delay out of the audible range, which helps us greatly in achieving some decent SQ with this sub. This is by far the best you're going to be able to do with this sub, so if you don't like it, find someone to buy it off of you and spend the money on an IDMax (which is the same price).

 

Your box needs to be 1.84 cubic feet net with a 4" double flared port at 21.5" in length for a tuning of ~27.5hz. Add .14 cubic feet for sub displacement and .18 cubic feet for port displacement and you'll need to build your box to a total spec of ~2.16 cubic feet gross.

 

You'll need to order these specific parts:

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/flares/ports/vents/4flare-complete-kit/

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/flares/ports/vents/4flare-psp-4rg/

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/flares/ports/vents/4flare-psp-4tb/

 

Make sure you enable that infrasonic filter on the amp. You will need to line the walls with 2.5" acoustic foam. Order two sheets of this foam, and attach it with 3M Super 77 adhesive spray (which can be found at Ace, Home Depot, Lowes, etc.)

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-515

 

Build the box with a double thick baffle, creating a recess for the sub. If you need to see how I've done it, see this thread:

http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/36-electronics/6206-xtremerevolutions-subwoofer-boxes-4.html

 

Now, here's how you need to build the box.

The box dimensions will be 25" wide x 14" tall x 15" deep. Mount the sub on the front of the box, toward the right side of the box, equidistant from the top, bottom, and right edge. If you build the box with a ridge on the sides like I did in the above thread, factor that into the side edge distance as well. Mount the port so that it fires out of the right side of the box. Place this toward the bottom rear corner of the side of the box, furthest away from the sub. This is going to require some measuring and double-checking on your part. Here's why.

 

The port has two flares, and you need to make sure you can do two things:

1. have enough clearance between the sub's 9.3" mounting depth (minus .75 for the baffle it's being mounted to) and the port itself

2. have enough clearance between the port's inner flare and the box walls.

 

With a 15" mounting depth, you should be able to do this without a problem as you'll have 6.25" of clearance behind the sub to mount the port. However, I wanted to make sure you would have enough.

 

Line all of the walls of the box except for the front baffle that the sub mounts to with the acoustic foam. PM me if you believe you may have trouble building this box, as I may be able to build it for you.

Edited April 18, 2012 by xtremerevolution

[xtremerevolution]

Here's the modeling I did for reference, and so you can see why I specified things the way I did. Excursion and vent velocity are modeled at a 1000W peak. You'll probably easily hit 2000W peaks with this sub.

 

The modeling includes the high pass (infrasonic) filter, acoustic foam, and simulated cabin gain.

 

Total frequency response:

 

Excursion:

 

Vent Air Velocity:

 

 

 

Here's what the sealed box would have looked like. Keep in mind, every 1db change is a 10% difference perceived by the human ear. That peak at around 45hz would have sounded pretty bad.

[Bostons94Vert]

wow thats incredible and i cant say thank you enough Xtreme for taking the time and putting all of that together...How much would you want to make that exact box and shipping to Boston? Id love to try and do it myself but my garage is now being used for a project 49 Anglia me and my old man are putting together and you should be paid for all this

[xtremerevolution]

wow thats incredible and i cant say thank you enough Xtreme for taking the time and putting all of that together...How much would you want to make that exact box and shipping to Boston? Id love to try and do it myself but my garage is now being used for a project 49 Anglia me and my old man are putting together and you should be paid for all this

 

$275 plus shipping is what I'd charge for this box if you wanted it carpeted. If you wanted it bare MDF and wanted to carpet it yourself, I can knock $35 off that cost. Carpeting is generally very simple and allows you to use the specific material you want. For example, one guy I'm currently building a box for wants a Marvel comics print that he's ordering online for it.

 

Cost breakdown:

$33.44 for the port

$36.91 for the foam

$35.00 for a sheet of MDF

$6.00 for the terminal cup

$10 for adhesive spray

$15 for cabinet carpet

 

Box design: free.

Materials total: $136.35, not including wood glue or paper towels. That leaves me with $138.65 to cover my shop costs (tools, electricity, bits, blades, etc.) and time. It's generally a 4-5 hour job.

 

That price includes bracing as you saw in the link I sent earlier as well as a double thick baffle with a recess to flush mount the sub.

 

I'd need a $60 deposit to get started. You can pay the remainder once the box is done and I upload some pictures of it. Total dimensions would be 26.5" wide x 14" tall x 15.75" deep, so make sure those dimensions would fit in your trunk, as I notice you have a vert.

 

If that sounds good, send me your zip code and I can get a more exact shipping quote. Expect the shipping cost to be between $50 and $80 via UPS or FedEx (whichever is cheaper), depending on where you live. If you live out in the middle of nowhere, shipping costs are typically higher. I currently have two orders in progress for sub boxes, so I may not be able to start yours till late next week.

Edited April 19, 2012 by xtremerevolution

[xtremerevolution]

I take it you're not going to want to have a box built?

[Bostons94Vert]

I apologize xtreme I havent had a chance to get on here. So I ended up finding out that a good friend of my father is a carpenter and has an entire shop he is willing to let me use. I would like to give it a shot and see what i can do with some direction. Im still down for throwing you a couple bucks for the design and for the directions because I really do appreciate it

[xtremerevolution]

I apologize xtreme I havent had a chance to get on here. So I ended up finding out that a good friend of my father is a carpenter and has an entire shop he is willing to let me use. I would like to give it a shot and see what i can do with some direction. Im still down for throwing you a couple bucks for the design and for the directions because I really do appreciate it

 

Glad to see you decided to build it yourself.

 

The parts you need are listed are a few posts up. One 8x4 sheet of MDF should be enough. On a box this large, bracing is required. A circle jig on the router you're using will also be required if you want it to look clean. You can use a jigsaw if you're in a tight spot but you won't have the same results. Most of my subs lightly press-fit into their slots, to give you the kind of precision I work with. I can walk you through any steps you have questions about.

 

Go through the pictures I posted in this thread to give you an idea of what you're in for and what steps you need to take. You'll see how I cut the bracing.

 

http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/36-electronics/6206-xtremerevolutions-subwoofer-boxes-4.html

 

Make sure to measure plenty of times, and make sure you have plenty of clamps! On a box like this, I typically use at least 16 clamps. If you don't have enough clamps, you can use screws, but these are the *only* screws I would recommend using, and they must be pre-drilled.

 

 

Do not use drywall screws or any other straight thread screws as you will risk splitting the MDF. Keep in mind, the sole purpose of these screws is to clamp the MDF pieces together if you don't have enough bar clamps, not to be a structural bond. The wood glue is 10x more effective at that.

 

Feel free to ask any questions and I'll guide you along the way.

[Bostons94Vert]

Arite so i know im a complete p.i.t.a at this point but i picked up a second 9500 for $150 so i hate to ask again Xtreme but how would you feel about a box for the pair? Do you think ill have enough space to build a good enough box? thanks again for the help

[xtremerevolution]

Arite so i know im a complete p.i.t.a at this point but i picked up a second 9500 for $150 so i hate to ask again Xtreme but how would you feel about a box for the pair? Do you think ill have enough space to build a good enough box? thanks again for the help

 

Double the internal volume and add another port of the exact same size and dimension. You're now looking at 4.32 cubic feet. Can you make a box that fits through the trunk opening for that size?

 

Just so you're aware, bracing is now especially required. Here's are a few pictures of some recent boxes I built:

 

I didn't brace the second box as well as I could have, as a couple of lateral braces would have been nice to have, but would have taken significantly more time and I was already giving that guy one hell of a deal on the box.