Ignition help - Possible VATS

[Leadfoot]

I have posted in a couple other threads trying to narrow my problem down. Life has been crazy over the last couple months so I finally got to spend some time work on my 94 Cutlass. I am down to what I believe the last part of my problem is and was hoping for some help.

 

My car started having an intermittent problem in the fall (very rare). I would turn the key, I could hear the starter click, but it wouldn't turn the motor over at all. Turn the key off, try again, and it would start. Very rare. As fall wore on it became more common and would even do the click thing twice before starting. Mid November it got even more common. It is my DD and I was still driving it mostly every day. The few times I could find time to work on it, I couldn't dulpicate my problem. I moved on to fixing the oil leak since I had figured out what it was. Oil lever sensor was cracked and leaking oil everywhere (including in the starter). I decided to replace the starter for good measure since the car has 212k miles on. I figured the starter was not the problem, but really hoped it was. I was wrong. I was beginning to suspect the VATS wires from the ignition cylinder were getting worn. I am able to determine that when the problem occurs I am only getting 8 volts to the trigger wire on the starter instead of 10.-11 when it actually starts.

 

Mid December one morning no click or anything anymore. I assume that the VATS wires had completely broken and that was it. I did not have time to order the parts and tear my column down until the first week of Feb. I did so and BAM everything is working perfectly again. I feel better. The wires were not broken, but the insulation was worn through so I assume they were shorting out against each other or the ignition cylinder. That was great for a week. Then the very rare / randon no start and click problem began again. Of course every time I go to work on it, I cannot get it to do it. I literally started my CS 100+ times on a Sunday afternoon with not one problem. I pulled the column down and checked every thing I possibly could. That is until my freakin Multi meter decided to crap out on me.

 

Last night I had 2 new multi meters and time to work on it. I have probed the wires at the large connected mounted to the underside of the column. When I have the problem, the yellow wire still has 10.5-11 volts. Out at the Neutral Safety Switch I only have 8-8.5 V. It was getting late and starting to rain lightly so I had to call it a night. I assume in between these 2 points is where the VATS security module interrupts this wire and I also assume there is a connector on the firewall where this comes through. I am trying to fix this as quickly as possible since the CS is my DD and don't feel like destroying my dash to find the security module. My Chiltons guide has a pretty poor wiring diagram. I was hoping you guys might be able to help me locate the module and any other connector / interruption of this circuit so I can narrow down where the voltage drop is coming from.

 

In my years working at the Chevy dealer I never had the privelege of working on a VATS problem on a W-body so I am not as familiar with them. Heck, we didn't see too many VATS related problems at all, but maybe we were just lucky.

[slick]

Is your Security light on your dashboard?

[95 vert]

Doubt it's the VATS. With Vats you won't get a starter click. I would be looking for a weak connection to/from

the theft deterrent relay which the chassis manual says is below the right hand side of the instrument panel.

Pretty vague location description. Vats module is under the driver side of the dash left of the steering column.

I think you have a loose/corroded connection somewhere along the harness between the column and neutral

safety switch. Possibly the firewall (C100) connector.

[RobertISaar]

With Vats you won't get a starter click. I would be looking for a weak connection to/from

the theft deterrent relay

 

they are one and the same. the VATS module controls that relay, and if either the +12V on one side of the coil, the switched ground on the other, or the relay itself are in bad shape, it can cause this. did it in the MC for years, only when it was cold. so i yanked out the VATS module (had to pull the glovebox), yanked the relay, soldered the load wires together, removed the VATS DTC from the PCM and no i have type of problem like that anymore.

[95 vert]

they are one and the same. the VATS module controls that relay, and if either the +12V on one side of the coil, the switched ground on the other, or the relay itself are in bad shape, it can cause this. did it in the MC for years, only when it was cold. so i yanked out the VATS module (had to pull the glovebox), yanked the relay, soldered the load wires together, removed the VATS DTC from the PCM and no i have type of problem like that anymore.

 

What's one and the same? The relay and module? Switched ground comes from the module.

What I'm reading here is essentially what I said, a weak connection in the supply (yellow wire)

to or from the column to Neutral safety switch. Although you added the relay as a possible

fault.

Certainly not trying to argue here. Just looking for clarification.

[RobertISaar]

they're part of the same problem.

 

IMO, bypass the relay entirely. even if you're worried about theft, leave the module in there and connected to the PCM for it's VATS enable signal, unless you have a signal gen.

[Leadfoot]

Ok, I finally got back to working on this problem. I had been busy with work and honestly, the Cutlass was hardly doing this at all for a few weeks. It began getting worse and this week was a consistent problem. 50% of the time it would start the first time. The other 50% it would take 10 tries before it would start rather than make the starter simply click.

 

I have traced power through the relay in the passenger kick panel. Somewhere between that relay and the NSS the voltage drops from 10.5 volts to 8.5 volts. The best I can tell is the only connection between those 2 points is the connector on the passenger side of the firewall just behind the alternator (3100). I tend to think it is the connector. IIRC there was a water leak from a bad windshielf install many years ago on that side. However, trying to find the connector from the inside it proving a challenge. It appears I may need to remove the A/C case to get to it. Is that the case? (This is a 94 Cutlass 2 door with the square dash).

 

Has anyone removed / gotten to this connector from the inside of the car? Any tips on how to get to it?

 

Are there any other connectors? I could not find where it ran through the fuse block under the hood so I don't think that is it.

[1988PhantomFE3]

Clean your battery post & wires connections, all of them, especially where that positive wire leaves the battery and goes to some post thingie that has a red cap on it labeled, AUX on the top and BATTERY on the diagonal side. Use brushes, take it all apart (not the fuseable link contraption, just the connecting cables, nut, washers and mounting locations), scrub, scape, clean. That post thing that's mounted behind the windshield washer bottle reseviour is the key.

 

NOTHING ELECTRICAL can work properly until those connections are clean. It all starts there, I'll follow this post just in case it wasn't that.

[xennith]

Hey all, Can I jump start this thread please? I'm having a similar issue with my 95 vert 3.4. When I turn the key it will either start fine or it will do everything except start the engine...no click from the starter, all the electronics work but no start and it's very sporadic. Occasionally when driving the security light comes on. If this is a VATS problem, is this super had to understand? I don't want to mess up electronics and I don't want to bypass. I'm not concerned about theft, just want to keep everything original.

[RobertISaar]

you can keep everything original, yet still bypass.....

 

when the engine is running, after a couple of minutes, you can disconnect the 2 wire plug for the VATS pellet that runs down the steering column, and the system will go into fail-enable mode and always start with a correctly cut key assuming the starter relay isn't flaky.

 

you'll have a constant security light on(could pull the bulb if it bothered you), but it will function normally.

[xennith]

So do you think the starting issue is a security problem and not a bad switch?

[RobertISaar]

i think it's a security problem caused by a bad switch.

[xennith]

so does that mean if I replace the ignition switch it would work as it should? I'm guessing that requires a new key and programming which I can't do myself? I hope I'm not sounding dumb, but I tend to over analyze before I get into a something. Thanks again for the help.

[RobertISaar]

if it's like ~90% of other cars with the same issue, the sensing contacts in the ignition cylinder are the problem, probably broken off or are in the process of breaking off. a new ignition switch would fix that.

 

new key would be required, programming, no. the PASSKEY module programs automatically the first time it is powered up and a valid key is being used. it can only be programmed once, so you would either need a new module or get a key cut that uses the same resistor pellet that yours does and use the existing module.

[xennith]

Gotcha! Thanks!

[Pabz]

easiest way to check if its VATS problem. get a multimeter and measure the resistor value of your key, there is a list of possible resistor values on the net, mine is 1130 cant remember where the dec place goes i think its 1.130kohms. once you check the key you can test the tumbler connections by tracking down the VATS wire and finding the connector. The white wires come out of the tumbler and then are covered in a black sheath until the connector. If you disconnect this and measure the resistance across the two leads in the connector head that go to the tumbler you should get the same value as your key you just tested.

[Crazy K]

better temporary idea. get the car started. with the car running, unhook the vats connector at the base of the column. once the security light has come on, you may run the car any way you like forever without the vats module caring about the key being read. this is fail-safe mode, and gives you the oppurtunity to guarantee that the key cylinder is not cuasing your issue.

 

let me make a suggestion: on my 94 CS sedan, the neutral safety switch failed and would not allow the car to start. sometimes it would start if you moved the shifter to neutral, but for now I had to splice the wires together to bypass the switch until i get a chance to fix it..... probe the switch and see if it is weak or just plain old replace it.

 

Part tip: the 95 and 94 models use the same switch, but a rewire ran less current though the 95 switch... so they tend to be good longer. Also, cars that have 4 reverse bulbs tend to have worn out the reverse light circuit in the same switch faster... so get one from a 95 with two reverse bulbs (ie not a CS sedan)

Edited August 23, 2012 by Crazy K

[Pabz]

better temporary idea. get the car started. with the car running, unhook the vats connector at the base of the column. once the security light has come on, you may run the car any way you like forever without the vats module caring about the key being read. this is fail-safe mode, and gives you the oppurtunity to guarantee that the key cylinder is not cuasing your issue.

 

let me make a suggestion: on my 94 CS sedan, the neutral safety switch failed and would not allow the car to start. sometimes it would start if you moved the shifter to neutral, but for now I had to splice the wires together to bypass the switch until i get a chance to fix it..... probe the switch and see if it is weak or just plain old replace it.

 

Part tip: the 95 and 94 models use the same switch, but a rewire ran less current though the 95 switch... so they tend to be good longer. Also, cars that have 4 reverse bulbs tend to have worn out the reverse light circuit in the same switch faster... so get one from a 95 with two reverse bulbs (ie not a CS sedan)

 

I just unplugged the ParkNeutral switch and plugged in another one and left it on top. Damn P/N sw.

[xennith]

I like the idea of unplugging temporarily to make sure that's the problem. I don't think it's the neutral switch b/c I've tried starting it that way. Also mine is a vert so I only have two reverse bulbs.