My Electrical Gremlin

[xtremerevolution]

My 95 Regal (L67 swap) has an electrical gremlin. There's a bad connection somewhere. I've been having an engine vibration and occasionally erratic shifting and I'm 100% convinced that they are related to something electrical somewhere. I'm getting alternator whine in my speakers, and my lights on my equalizer and dome lights flicker very lightly while the engine is running. Its noticeable if you look away and see it in the corner of your eye.

 

Its extremely strange. I just took the car out again for a spin to get something at the store and the transmission shifted differently than it had ever shifted before. It just felt...normal. It shifted firm into 1st and didn't get confused like it usually does, engaging TCC, then disengaging, then engaging again right after the shift. It was very strange feeling it shift like it should. That, and at WOT, it pulled like mad. 1st gear at WOT is now useless. I punched it at 35mph on dry pavement in 1st gear and couldn't keep traction till 2nd, and its not *that* cold out right now. Its 33 degrees and I still have the all-season tires on.

 

So, I'm looking for possible causes. Its definitely something major since its affecting my stereo, my engine, and my transmission. Any ideas?

 

A few things to rule out. The battery is in the trunk, but the grounds from the battery to the chassis are secure. This I know 100% as I re-sanded down the metal contacts to the chassis and dumped a lot of solder into the terminals while heating with a torch. The chassis ground in the engine bay that goes to the engine block is secure on the chassis side. I just re-did those recently and there's no way those are bad. The terminals on that wire on both ends are good. Is it possible for the bolt itself to make a bad connection?

 

I have new 4 gauge wiring running from the aux post to the alternator directly, and another one two the aux post to the starter for easy starting. The power wire from the battery to the engine bay is also secure, as I soldered up the terminal in the engine bay, and the terminal on the battery is a hex compression closed terminal.

 

Any ideas? I don't care how "stupid" or elementary it may sound, please let me know if you can think of anything I should check.

Edited January 9, 2012 by xtremerevolution

[Schurkey]

I don't trust the body as a ground for a trunk-mounted battery.

 

Doesn't matter how nice the stub-cables are, all the electrons go from front to back through the spot-welds of the body sheetmetal.

 

Got some primary wire and a DVOM? Voltage drop test of the ground circuit from engine to - battery post. Connect + voltmeter lead to engine ground (using fifteen feet of primary wire to extend the lead if needed), connect - lead of voltmeter to - battery post. Have a helper crank engine (disable ignition so it won't start) while you read the voltmeter. Anything over 1/4 volt indicates bad ground.

[xtremerevolution]

I don't trust the body as a ground for a trunk-mounted battery.

 

Doesn't matter how nice the stub-cables are, all the electrons go from front to back through the spot-welds of the body sheetmetal.

 

Got some primary wire and a DVOM? Voltage drop test of the ground circuit from engine to - battery post. Connect + voltmeter lead to engine ground (using fifteen feet of primary wire to extend the lead if needed), connect - lead of voltmeter to - battery post. Have a helper crank engine (disable ignition so it won't start) while you read the voltmeter. Anything over 1/4 volt indicates bad ground.

 

Alright, so as a start, you'd recommend running a ground wire from the battery to the engine bay?

[xtremerevolution]

Alright, I just ordered some wire. 24 feet of this stuff:

 

http://www.knukonceptz.com/searchResults.cfm#

 

And since I'm paranoid about CCA corrosion, I ordered two pairs of these:

http://www.knukonceptz.com/searchResults.cfm#

 

I'll be filling those with solder as well to make sure they don't go anywhere and to prevent corrosion, and replacing all of my crimp-style terminals with them. Lets see if this fixes any of my issues.

 

To clarify, I have 0/1 gauge CCA going from the battery to the engine bay right now. It might also be worth noting that when the car is running, it should be running entirely off alternator power, so this might really not fix anything, but at least its one checkmark off the list.

Edited January 9, 2012 by xtremerevolution

[skitchin]

<-Watching this thread, I've had some gremlins myself!

[Schurkey]

Alright, I just ordered some wire. 24 feet of this stuff:

 

http://www.knukonceptz.com/searchResults.cfm#

 

And since I'm paranoid about CCA corrosion, I ordered two pairs of these:

http://www.knukonceptz.com/searchResults.cfm#

Links don't work for me.

 

I'll be filling those with solder as well to make sure they don't go anywhere and to prevent corrosion, and replacing all of my crimp-style terminals with them. Lets see if this fixes any of my issues.

 

To clarify, I have 0/1 gauge CCA going from the battery to the engine bay right now. It might also be worth noting that when the car is running, it should be running entirely off alternator power, so this might really not fix anything, but at least its one checkmark off the list.

Please explain "CCA" 'cause to me it's "Cold Cranking Amps" and I'm not smart enough to figure out another meaning.

 

You're right, the alternator should supply all the electrical needs once the engine is running, except perhaps at idle--depending on the load.

 

How about voltage-drop testing the alternator + and - circuits?

 

 

I'd also take that DVOM and set it for AC volts, and see how much ripple the alternator is putting out. Should be VERY LITTLE.

 

I suppose after that it's a matter of pulling all the power supply connections to the ECM and ICM apart for inspection and cleaning.

 

"Alternator" whine in the speakers could be radiated RFI from the ignition system--although that tends to be more "static" than "whine".

[Schurkey]

Oh, yeah. WHAT is the open-circuit (no-load) voltage at the battery?

[xtremerevolution]

Links don't work for me.

 

 

Please explain "CCA" 'cause to me it's "Cold Cranking Amps" and I'm not smart enough to figure out another meaning.

 

You're right, the alternator should supply all the electrical needs once the engine is running, except perhaps at idle--depending on the load.

 

How about voltage-drop testing the alternator + and - circuits?

 

 

I'd also take that DVOM and set it for AC volts, and see how much ripple the alternator is putting out. Should be VERY LITTLE.

 

I suppose after that it's a matter of pulling all the power supply connections to the ECM and ICM apart for inspection and cleaning.

 

"Alternator" whine in the speakers could be radiated RFI from the ignition system--although that tends to be more "static" than "whine".

 

My cable:

http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KCA0BK

 

My terminals:

http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=SSRT0

 

CCA when referring to power wire is copper clad aluminum. Cheaper than copper, more flexible, and corrodes easier. Also not as effective as copper. 0/1 gauge CCA is equivalent to 2 gauge copper with regard to power handling ability and voltage drop. However, 0/1 gague CCA is also a lot cheaper than 2 gauge copper.

 

Thanks for that diagram. Very helpful. Next time I pull the car into the garage, I'll do exactly that.

 

The noise is definitely an alternator whine. It increases in pitch according to engine RPM.

[xtremerevolution]

Oh, yeah. WHAT is the open-circuit (no-load) voltage at the battery?

 

I will check that as well.

[white4d96]

Could be a dying alt as well. I know mine is on the way out and I get erratic voltage, alt whine, and other fun crap.

[xtremerevolution]

Could be a dying alt as well. I know mine is on the way out and I get erratic voltage, alt whine, and other fun crap.

 

How long did that go on for before it finally completely died? Mine has been like this for quite some time.

[alec_b]

I was going to say alternator as well.

 

Got any AC voltage on the output side? That will for sure introduce noise and can cause electrical glitches, especially with computer-controlled items (a la transmission). Failing/failed diodes can cause both noise and AC voltage to be introduced into the system.

[xtremerevolution]

Volts at batt car off 12.4

Volts at engine bay car off 12.4

Volts at batt car on 14.1

Volts at alt car on 14.2

Volts at driver fuse terminal 14.0

Volts at pass fuse terminal 13.9

AC volts at alt car on .15-.20

AC volts at batt car on .05

 

Didn't get to test the wiring to check for a voltage drop, but I'm thinking there isn't really one. I'll check again later.

 

Sent from my HTC Awesome using Tapatalk

[Schurkey]

Volts at batt car off 12.4

Volts at engine bay car off 12.4

CHARGE that battery. It's 1/4 discharged. OCV should be 12.6--12.7 AFTER the battery has been OFF the charger for an hour. May go into the low-13 volt range temporarily--surface charge--and that can be ignored as it won't last. It should hold 12.6v though.

 

 

 

 

Volts at batt car on 14.1

Volts at alt car on 14.2

1/10 volt difference or less, depending on the voltmeter rounding up or down on the second digit after the decimal. Not terrible. There wasn't any big load on the battery; (right???) heavier load might show increased VD.

 

Volts at driver fuse terminal 14.0

Volts at pass fuse terminal 13.9

AC volts at alt car on .15-.20

AC volts at batt car on .05

Again, some VD (voltage drop) on a system that probably isn't loaded heavily. Heavier load might show increased VD.

I'd have to research the amount of allowable AC ripple. 0.20 volts seems high...but I'm out-of-practice and shouldn't make a judgement here. It's less at the battery, and that's typical.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Schurkey

[xtremerevolution]

The only load that was on the car at the time was the trunk light to my knowledge. I guess I can try charging the battery to see what that does, but that should only affect starting, not running. While running, voltage is fairly good all around.

 

I'll throw the battery on a charger tomorrow.

 

Sent from my HTC Awesome using Tapatalk

[alec_b]

General rule of thumb is less than half a volt for AC, but the lower the better. .2v is getting up there though, almost 50% of the limit. Can you slap a different alt. on there? Maybe even a cheap junkyard one just to rule it out.

[xtremerevolution]

General rule of thumb is less than half a volt for AC, but the lower the better. .2v is getting up there though, almost 50% of the limit. Can you slap a different alt. on there? Maybe even a cheap junkyard one just to rule it out.

 

That would require running out to the junkyard. Hmmm...its cold. I could pull it and have it tested at the nearest auto store if that helps anything.

 

I put a charger on the battery it all night and tested voltage this morning, and it was between 13.6 and 13.7V. I disconnected the ground to reset the PCM as well. Transmission shifts...differently. Its more normal going from 1st into 2nd gear, but it feels like it takes too long to get into 2nd gear, and if you slow down in 2nd gear, it feels like the TCC doesn't disengage like it should and the car starts to drag coming to a stop with the TCC still engaged down to like 1000 rpm. It did this earlier too. Sounds like the TCC solenoid might not be getting enough power or voltage.

Edited January 11, 2012 by xtremerevolution

[alec_b]

Having your alternator tested isn't always fool-proof. I've seen plenty of those machines test obviously bad (ie not charging at all) alternators and pass them. Same with ICM's.

 

Throw on a parka and grab a 15mm and go snag yourself another one Otherwise, if you're good with a soldering gun, just order a rebuild kit and rebuild the one you have. There's repair manuals floating around all over for the CS130's.

[xtremerevolution]

Having your alternator tested isn't always fool-proof. I've seen plenty of those machines test obviously bad (ie not charging at all) alternators and pass them. Same with ICM's.

 

Throw on a parka and grab a 15mm and go snag yourself another one Otherwise, if you're good with a soldering gun, just order a rebuild kit and rebuild the one you have. There's repair manuals floating around all over for the CS130's.

 

I'm pretty awesome with a soldering iron. Never knew you could rebuild those suckers. Great info! I'm curious to see if the new ground wire I bought will help my problem at all.

 

Edit: $120 for a rebuild kit for an alternator? Why??? I might as well just buy a new one at that point.

Edited January 11, 2012 by xtremerevolution

[Garrett Powered]

copper wire conducts one hell alot better than aluminum. I would try that before anything else.

 

I just ordered some grounding lugs with two holes for chassis grounding that came with copper bolts/nuts/washers/lockwashers. offers a far superior ground. also use koprshield. and why spot welds are bad I am not sure, unless they rusted away? even then.

[xtremerevolution]

copper wire conducts one hell alot better than aluminum. I would try that before anything else.

 

I just ordered some grounding lugs with two holes for chassis grounding that came with copper bolts/nuts/washers/lockwashers. offers a far superior ground. also use koprshield. and why spot welds are bad I am not sure, unless they rusted away? even then.

 

It does indeed. With regard to capacity and voltage drop, a 0/1 gauge cca wire is equivalent to a 2 gauge copper wire. another thing is the knu cca wire is oversized and doesn't even fit in a awg spec terminal, so that helps too. I'm trying to limit how much I spend on this car since I'm probably buying a new one soon.

 

Sent from my HTC Awesome using Tapatalk

[alec_b]

Is that really what they get for a rebuild kit? Man I can get a rebuilt from Auto Electric using all OE parts for that price.

 

A little checking on ebay produced these:

 

For a CS130-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CS130-CS121-Delco-Alternator-Repair-Kit-GM-Chevy-Pontiac-Buick-Olds-1986-1996-/200681938799?hash=item2eb9935f6f&item=200681938799&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

 

For a CS130D-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delco-CS130D-Alternator-repair-Kit-Chevy-Truck-Pontiac-Buick-Oldsmobile-94-03-/190606798322?hash=item2c610cedf2&item=190606798322&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

 

Another for a CS130 with a great diagram and cross reference chart-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALTERNATOR-REPAIR-KIT-GM-DELCO-CS130-/160660648277?hash=item25681ef155&item=160660648277&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

[xtremerevolution]

Is that really what they get for a rebuild kit? Man I can get a rebuilt from Auto Electric using all OE parts for that price.

 

A little checking on ebay produced these:

 

For a CS130-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CS130-CS121-Delco-Alternator-Repair-Kit-GM-Chevy-Pontiac-Buick-Olds-1986-1996-/200681938799?hash=item2eb9935f6f&item=200681938799&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

 

For a CS130D-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delco-CS130D-Alternator-repair-Kit-Chevy-Truck-Pontiac-Buick-Oldsmobile-94-03-/190606798322?hash=item2c610cedf2&item=190606798322&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

 

Another for a CS130 with a great diagram and cross reference chart-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALTERNATOR-REPAIR-KIT-GM-DELCO-CS130-/160660648277?hash=item25681ef155&item=160660648277&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

 

Must have looked at a bad site or something. That's not really that bad.

[Garrett Powered]

It does indeed. With regard to capacity and voltage drop, a 0/1 gauge cca wire is equivalent to a 2 gauge copper wire. another thing is the knu cca wire is oversized and doesn't even fit in a awg spec terminal, so that helps too. I'm trying to limit how much I spend on this car since I'm probably buying a new one soon.

 

Sent from my HTC Awesome using Tapatalk

 

why spend anything at all on it if you are using an aluminum charge wire? just crush the car for scrap. if you can't spend a measily $100 on some actual copper wire. aluminum wire is worthless no matter how thick it is. you just don't use it for wire no matter what. 8 gauge copper is better than that.

[alec_b]

What difference does the type of wire make? Current carrying capacity is the same no matter what, as long as you account for the slightly lower efficiency of CCA wire over pure copper.

 

I used 0ga wire in my regal to power my sub amp, it was CCA. It had more than enough capacity and my amp was rated at 130A max draw, same as the output from a factory CS130. Besides that, even with ALL the loads in his car on, meaning stereo at normal volume rear defrost on heater blowing and headlights on, he's probably still only pulling 90A, if that. He's using 0/1ga throughout, that's more than enough.

 

I just noticed he's using knuconceptz wires as well, that is the exact same wiring kit I used for my amp and the wire is THICK. I had to significantly trim it to fit it into the 4ga terminals on my amp, and it does NOT fit in 1/0 gauge ring terminals. You have to literally jam the wire in.

Edited January 12, 2012 by alec_b