Looking to build up the 3.4. Some Questions... OR 3800 Series III?

[Q-Ball]

One of the GTP's this winter is going to be built up engine wise. I have 2x92's GTP's with 3.4/LQ1. I want to build up the current engine, but can I swap out parts to the 96/97 to gain the HP? I know I can do the upper intake manifold, but other things I read online say there are other things that make the 96/97 better.

 

From wiki

 

The heads and intake manifolds were redesigned for the 1996 model year, incorporating a larger throttle body and plenum area, slightly shorter intake runners, cloverleaf combustion chambers, and larger "pill"-shaped exhaust ports. Camshafts and cam timing were also revised for the new, higher RPM powerband.

 

1996–1997 models used a modified version of the same short block and had different heads.

 

Basically can I swap all this out onto mine? Or would it be easier just to try and find a 96-97 and swap that in? OR Screw the 3.4 and drop the 3800 series III in? I'd really like to keep the 3.4 myself and do it up. I love the fact is dohc and a high revving engine.

 

My end goal is to turbo it to try and make around 430 HP with the 5 speed 284 of course. But I need help from you guys here. I need to go against my buddy's 2002 nissan maxima. He is running high 13's in the 1/4 with bolt ons. So over the winter I plan to pull the engine, clean it all up, rebuild it, love to bore it out, etc. Drop some cash into it, etc. I know there isnt a lot of aftermarket for the 3.4. Any idea's / suggestions?

[jman093]

It's hard to build an N/A LQ1 for big power because there are no parts for it whatsoever, but a turbo fixes all that. There have been a couple of turbo LQ1's built out there. The engine takes well to boost. Whatever you do it'd be beneficial to 96-97 top end swap. The 96-97 also has different pistons and a tad more compression so it should be more boost friendly to top swap an older engine vs dropping in the entire 96-97 engine. If you need port work done on heads/manifolds talk to Ben @ WOT-TECH.

[Q-Ball]

The reason I'd like to drop a 96/97 Engine is, I would be forced to switch from OBD1 to OBD2. Samething would go for the Series 3 as well. Originally I was just planning to do the top swap, but do you think it would be even feasible to switch the heads? Ideally, I would love to find a crate engine and start from there as seeing one on ebay just went for a mere $500.

[slick]

Truthfully,

 

If you are looking to do it quick with the least amount of thought or headaches, the SIII swap may be the way to go.

 

As already mentioned, there is little aftermarket available for the 3.4. And while WOT-TECH can port and polish some heads, you still have a lot of other items to deal with.

 

The 3800 already has a humongous aftermarket that is readily available. While some of the parts are not a direct fit into a 1st gen, they are very workable pieces.

 

 

As a side note, I'm a 3.4 fan, and i really dislike the 3800. But at the same time, you really have to weigh the pro's and the con's of what you want out of it all.

[jman093]

Truthfully,

 

If you are looking to do it quick with the least amount of thought or headaches, the SIII swap may be the way to go.

 

As already mentioned, there is little aftermarket available for the 3.4. And while WOT-TECH can port and polish some heads, you still have a lot of other items to deal with.

 

The 3800 already has a humongous aftermarket that is readily available. While some of the parts are not a direct fit into a 1st gen, they are very workable pieces.

 

 

As a side note, I'm a 3.4 fan, and i really dislike the 3800. But at the same time, you really have to weigh the pro's and the con's of what you want out of it all.

 

But he won't be needing any aftermarket parts for an LQ1 to go 12s or 13s with a turbo, and Jason, many people have done 96-97 top end swaps no problem. It can be done and from what I understand it's bolt on, but I've never done it personally as I already have a 96. You'd be best to convert to OBD2 anyways and run the engine sequential fuel injection like all 94-97's and you'll need some way to tune the setup.

[Q-Ball]

Yeah, I was looking at some prices for stuff, and if I can get a crate engine for around 500, would save me a lot of time. Who wants to help in southern Ontario this winter? Sounds like only the 97 has 33mm lifters? I thought it was both 96/97, but according to wot...

 

8% lighter than stock, these lifters will allow higher RPM use and increase throttle response. Will work in 91-96 motors. 97 3.4 DOHC uses a 33mm lifter.

 

And does anyone have thermal spacers for the 3.4? Is it even possible to make these?

Edited September 12, 2011 by Q-Ball

[slick]

But he won't be needing any aftermarket parts for an LQ1 to go 12s or 13s with a turbo, and Jason, many people have done 96-97 top end swaps no problem. It can be done and from what I understand it's bolt on, but I've never done it personally as I already have a 96. You'd be best to convert to OBD2 anyways and run the engine sequential fuel injection like all 94-97's and you'll need some way to tune the setup.

 

So turbo isn't aftermarket?

 

 

I do agree, the 3.4 turbo is not hard to do. But everything is custom.

 

SIII 3800 swap is cake. And then the part that there are already turbo kits available takes out a lot of the thought.

[jman093]

Yeah, I was looking at some prices for stuff, and if I can get a crate engine for around 500, would save me a lot of time. Who wants to help in southern Ontario this winter? Sounds like only the 97 has 33mm lifters? I thought it was both 96/97, but according to wot...

 

8% lighter than stock, these lifters will allow higher RPM use and increase throttle response. Will work in 91-96 motors. 97 3.4 DOHC uses a 33mm lifter.

 

And does anyone have thermal spacers for the 3.4? Is it even possible to make these?

 

Those on WOT-TECH are a different 35mm lifter that's 8% lighter than the stock 35mm lifter. I have no idea how much lighter the 33mm lifter is. You could run them with a 97 cam carrier.

 

Thermal spacer? Like this:http://www.overkillengineeringmotorsports.com/34douptoloph.html

 

He makes some pretty lofty claims about it there, but phenolic spacers are nothing new so I'd assume it works to some degree and the price isn't bad. I wonder if it may have slight affect on power though making the intake runners even longer than they are. There also isn't a lot of clearance on a 96-97 upper intake anyways. Would be interesting to see how it fits with that. I'm pretty sure mine it would hit the strut tower brace as its pretty close already, but that may not be a concern for if if you're planning 1/4 mile blasts.

[digitaloutsider]

I'm all in favor of a turbo LQ1 project as it's something I've wanted to do for years.

 

Someone on 60º figured out what all parts would be required to make a fully forged LQ1. It was a bunch of parts swapping from other motors, see if you can find that thread. If you're going turbo, don't bother with swapping the intakes over, it's all going to be moot once it's under boost anyhow.

[jman093]

I'm all in favor of a turbo LQ1 project as it's something I've wanted to do for years.

 

Someone on 60º figured out what all parts would be required to make a fully forged LQ1. It was a bunch of parts swapping from other motors, see if you can find that thread. If you're going turbo, don't bother with swapping the intakes over, it's all going to be moot once it's under boost anyhow.

 

Boost can help mask problems for sure, but what's going to improve flow N/A will do the same for a turbo setup. 96-97 intakes are only going to help.

The forged parts are a 3500 crank which are stock forged and can be used in an LQ1, but IIRC the CPS tone ring has to be welded on it, forged aftermarket SBC rods fit an LQ1, and I don't think they are any forged pistons but there are hypereutectic ones available on Summit that will be fine for anything but extreme boost. There are numerous threads about all of that on 60V6 I don't feel like searching for.

[Galaxie500XL]

Personally, I always thought a supercharger made more sense on the LQ1, to fatten up the almost nonexistent low-end torque.

 

I LOVE my LQ1 above 3500 RPM, but have never been very impressed with it at low RPM.

[Artemis]

Yeah, I was looking at some prices for stuff, and if I can get a crate engine for around 500, would save me a lot of time. Who wants to help in southern Ontario this winter? Sounds like only the 97 has 33mm lifters? I thought it was both 96/97, but according to wot...

 

8% lighter than stock, these lifters will allow higher RPM use and increase throttle response. Will work in 91-96 motors. 97 3.4 DOHC uses a 33mm lifter.

 

And does anyone have thermal spacers for the 3.4? Is it even possible to make these?

 

Some 96 LQ1's have the 33mm lifter. Found this out this summer doing my swap from a 95 LQ1 to a 96 LQ1. A phenolic spacer would be very simple to do on a 96+ LQ1 because the LIM intakes are in a straight line and not scattered like previous version of LQ1. Q-Ball, where are you located in Southern Ontario? Me and Captain Ficho are in Toronto/Scarborough. Would love to help you on a turbo LQ1 setup. In fact, Captain Ficho (Fil) has welders and turbo experience, we can fab almost anything.

[Q-Ball]

Hey, I'm in London. I know Fil, he used to live in London. I would love the extra help. Fil is a good guy. Maybe he can polish my car after.

[Q-Ball]

Personally, I always thought a supercharger made more sense on the LQ1, to fatten up the almost nonexistent low-end torque.

 

I LOVE my LQ1 above 3500 RPM, but have never been very impressed with it at low RPM.

 

The engine is too tall to have a supercharger on it. You can do it, but you have to cut out your hood. I've had the L67, but now I think its time for a Turbo.

[xtremerevolution]

Turbo L36? Way too easy if you have the money.

 

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[Q-Ball]

No, I think I'm going to for 3.4 Build. Im thinking about building it up as far as I can for NA right now. We all want to see what the LQ1 is capable of. Since the Headers alone are 1k, I dont want to chop them up right away for a turbo. Anyone know the highest Wheel HP on a NA 3.4? I've heard stories as high as 278.

 

Another question is, since the manual 3.4 have a slightly higher compression due to the pistons from what I've read, is it possible to swap those into the 96/97 engine to gain more HP? I know higher compression isnt better for turbo's, but I'm still looking to get a NA goal too.

 

Off the top of my head the best power adders before a Turbo are:

96/97 Engine with the better heads and exhaust for headers to bolt up to.

Adjust the cam timing to ~13 to Retard the exhaust.

Headers

OBD 2 Swap and Tune.

Injectors

P&P Heads

Maybe custom UIM? Seen some on Fiero's that look good.

Larger TB, although I heard it wont matter with boost.

 

As for the 5 speed holding up, I'd like to get some new parts too. As a Clutch, maybe flywheel. I should talk to Jeff Kuntz about that.

 

I have a FFP Underdrive Pulley as well the FFP Dogbone. It needs new poly bushings, can I just measure and order some or make my own? I think thats it for now.

[slick]

P&P the heads won't yield you the power that you are thinking of. The guys that made the big power without headers, they had there heads intake and exhaust ports completely reshaped. Meaning- Material was added, then removed to completely reshape the ports.

 

Custom manifold is nice. Hopefully you have someone that can build it to the correct runner dimensions, and overall volume that you really need.

[xtremerevolution]

P&P the heads won't yield you the power that you are thinking of. The guys that made the big power without headers, they had there heads intake and exhaust ports completely reshaped. Meaning- Material was added, then removed to completely reshape the ports.

 

Custom manifold is nice. Hopefully you have someone that can build it to the correct runner dimensions, and overall volume that you really need.

 

Sounds expensive. Much more expensive than swapping in an L67 and running 13s with a few bolt-ons bat. Add a cam and you're almost in the 12s.

 

Doesn't make sense to fit a larger engine in that engine bay and dump so much money into it when its so much easier and cheaper to do an engine swap.

 

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[slick]

IIRC, the headwork was well over $1k alone.

[Galaxie500XL]

Well, the '96-97 engines are interference engines...I doubt there's much room for higher compression pistons without bumping into valves.

[xtremerevolution]

IIRC, the headwork was well over $1k alone.

 

I don't doubt it, especially when performance shops being low on business, a lot of them are closing up and its becoming more difficult to find specialized people to do that kind of work.

 

An entire L67 swap with mods can be done for ~$2000. I was head to head with a 2011 Taurus SHO the other day, so I think the investment was worthwhile.

[pwmin]

yeah, but it's more fun doing something not many people have done. I haven't checked into this in forever, but there's some info on 60V6 about 3.4X cam custom grinds. Definitely at least gasket-match the heads and plenums...I did that w/ my '91. It sucked, but worthwhile. You can fit a larger TB too among other things w/ an adapter, but I'm really rusty on that stuff. I wanted to build a 3.4X someday too but never got to and probably still wouldn't have been able to even if I still had the car.

Edited September 22, 2011 by pwmin

[xtremerevolution]

yeah, but it's more fun doing something not many people have done. I haven't checked into this in forever, but there's some info on 60V6 about 3.4X cam custom grinds. Definitely at least gasket-match the heads and plenums...I did that w/ my '91. It sucked, but worthwhile. You can fit a larger TB too among other things w/ an adapter, but I'm really rusty on that stuff. I wanted to build a 3.4X someday too but never got to and probably still wouldn't have been able to even if I still had the car.

 

Yeah, it is more fun, but only if you have a lot of money and don't care how you spend it, and if going fast isn't your ultimate goal. When you can do it easier, and cheaper another way and choose to take the more expensive and the harder route, going fast for cheap isn't your primary concern.

[jman093]

P&P the heads won't yield you the power that you are thinking of. The guys that made the big power without headers, they had there heads intake and exhaust ports completely reshaped. Meaning- Material was added, then removed to completely reshape the ports.

 

Where are some of these builds? All I've ever found searching here and 60V6 for LQ1 builds are guys who have gone Turbo/SC. I have yet to find good build anyone has ever done on an NA LQ1 in a w-body.

 

Jason, to answer to your suggestions up top,

 

96-97 already have higher compression pistons than 91-95 engines. Since you're going to be buying pistons anyways and have a 96-97, I'd look into some of the hypereutectic 96-97 ones that are for sale. You can find them for good prices on places like summitracing.com

 

For injectors, remember that LQ1's have dual-pattern injectors since there are 2 intake valves so it's not the best idea to run an OHV injector. I have some injectors out of a Suzuki with a GM LY7 (3.6L DOHC) that I plan to run. They are rated a couple pounds higher than LQ1 injectors, and the 07-up LY7 injectors I bought GM brags up about their highly atomized mixture. Either way it has to be way better than our old Multecs. My plan is to change the FPR and run them at the 58 psi they run at in their native application, so even though the injectors themselves are only a bit bigger we should be able to get quite a bit more flow.

 

For P&P, Ben @ WOT-TECH quoted me (through PM @ 60V6) $450 to do the heads a couple months ago. He says he knows what works on an LQ1. Just talk to him about your build. He's very willing to talk to you.

 

Why do you plan to go -13 exhaust? From that one Fiero page? I think that was one of the first experimentations. There are a whole slew of combos out there people have run, but from what I've read on 60V6, +6/-6 is generally regarded as the best change, although any actual dyno data is hard to come by, so it's impossible to know anything for sure.

[jman093]

Yeah, it is more fun, but only if you have a lot of money and don't care how you spend it, and if going fast isn't your ultimate goal. When you can do it easier, and cheaper another way and choose to take the more expensive and the harder route, going fast for cheap isn't your primary concern.

 

x2, but the way I see it, and I'm guessing for our OP as well, doing something different counts for a lot. That's why I'd love to also do a good NA LQ1 build. If going as fast as possible for as cheap as possible it all that mattered, none of us would even have w-bodies! We'd all have hot compacts or LS1 f-bodies or something. Lord help us all!

 

And I'm honestly not sure it'd be too much cheaper/easier since you'd have to get past the up front costs and work to procure and swap in an L67. Every person and salvage yard is proud of an L67 in price and it'll probably need rebuilt bottom end and SC, plus a different PCM and the 98-99 Z34/LTZ subframe, engine mounts, and wiring harness. Here we're working with what we already have. Plus it's an LQ1, it's not like the starting point is a 140 hp LH0. We have 215hp stock and all it takes to crest 7k RPM on one is a removed rev limiter (and raised WOT shift points on an auto).