ristin Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 Thanks for taking a moment to view my first post on w-body.com. My wife roped me into helping a member (Rosey) of her church group who owns the above 92 Lumina. The story I got from my wife, is the SES light came on after having the oil changed. She couldn't tell me if the light came on immediately after the oil change or just later after the oil change. I found out Rosey is in her 70's and on a very fixed income. My wife asked if I could look at the car and make sure Walmart properly installed the drain plug and to check the oil level. Rosey lives a few miles away and was coming to our house at 9am this morning. A little after nine she calls and says her car stalled climbing the hill to the house and wouldn't restart. Apparently it had been stalling all the way over, but would restart. We go and I get my first glance at the Lumina. It has 269000 miles on the clock and the first thing I notice while trying to start it; the battery is dead. (oil level was ok though, guess walmart can get it right sometimes) Jump started and the engine idled smooth. I thought I was going to get lucky by installing a new battery and walking away the hero. Decided to go the other way to our house which is still a climb but not as steep. Wife and Rosey took off, I selected drive, pulled onto the road and everything seemed fine, until.....Stopped at the stop sign, started to pull out and the engine died in the middle of the road. It sputtered and hiccuped like it was out of gas. It did restart and by pumping the throttle slightly I was able to get up to 35mph on the flats. I made a dash for the house, but as soon as I started up the hill, same problem. I tried 1st gear and moderate throttle, but it was a no go. After a few tries the car would only sort of run if I tried starting with the throttle wide open. The engine would badly misfire, backfire through the intake and stall. I rolled back down the hill to a wide shady spot and left it. Got some tools, came back, pulled the codes. Code 22 & 34. Found this site while researching the codes. The engine had cooled some and fired right up, I started to make a dash for the house but at about 1/3 throttle pedal it stalled and that was it. Went back home had some lunch, read a few things to check from this site regarding the MAP & TPS. I couldn't find a 5 volt reference signal on either sensor. About 1.88 volts was the highest from the TPS sensor feed wire and about 2.5v on the MAP. Tried running the engine with the MAP unplugged, then the TPS unplugged, both unplugged and no difference. Decided to check the codes again to see if there were any new ones from my messing with stuff. Now have 22,34 & 43. Gave up, Rosey called AAA and the car is home. She has a VERY limited budget and I'm wondering if there is anything I can try and diagnose before she has to take it to a shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mra32 Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 I had a computer go bad on my '91 3.1 and before it totally shit the bed, it was bucking from time to time. It never stranded me, but it did refuse to start after being parked in front of my house. I did occasionally get it to start, but it wouldnt start most of the time but gave me all kinds of weird codes. Onto the sensors, It sounds like you know your way around diagnosing cars, but just making sure you are checking them correctly, you have to backprobe the plug (safety pins taped to the end of your multi-meter work well here) with it plugged into the sensor, key on. the chiltons manual should give the location of the proper wires to measure across. I dont have it in front of me. For the map sensor, it should be i think low voltage (like 1volt) when the engine is not running and closer to 5volts at idle (high vacuum) . While you are there, you might want to unplug the sensor measure the voltage of the reference wire compared to the battery and compared to the ground on the plug. This could indicate the computer being bad TPS is the same deal with the backprobing and should be a clean sweep from one end to the other (i dont think i have to say the engine should be off but the key should be on). Sweep slowly to try to see if there is a dead spot in the sensor where it its reading like 0 volts. Analog multimeters are good for this, but can be done wit a digital if careful. Now if none of those look to be normal, i'd start looking at grounds. The one on the front of the engine on the trans bellhousing on my car was really bad. I picked up a few mpgs when I replaced it. If thats ok, then I might go back to the computer thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy K Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Do a fuel pressure check, you can "rent" the loaner fuel pressure guage from autozone. next thing that comes to mind is to check the fuel injectors to make sure none have fallen out of the 12 ohm range and are shorting out the PCM. simple multimeter can do that, and you do have to pull the plenum for 4 of the 6 injectors.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurkey Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 the battery is dead. ... I'm wondering if there is anything I can try and diagnose before she has to take it to a shop. FULLY CHARGE THE BATTERY. Assure that it will provide 12.6 volts with no load on it, after the charger has been disconnected for two hours. Figure out WHY the battery was dead. (Defective battery??? Defective cables??? Defective alternator??? Excess current draw due to defective starter motor???) AFTER (I repeat...AFTER) you have fixed the low-voltage problem, clear the codes and drive the vehicle to see what problems come back. You may want a "chase car" so if it stalls you have transportation back home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo090 Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 For the price of a new battery, new sensors, I think you can get a newer used car, higher mileage (100-175k) 95-00 lumina. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mra32 Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 For the price of a new battery, new sensors, I think you can get a newer used car, higher mileage (100-175k) 95-00 lumina. Not that throwing parts at a car is any way to fix it, but I dont think you can buy one of those for ~ $130 ($70 Battery + $13 TPS + $13 Knock Sensor + $27 MAP Sensor). And if you decided the computer needed to be replaced it should be $30 Max at the JY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo090 Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Haha true, but thats only if he fixes the problem with those parts. Either way , an american car with 270K is nearing its end in my opinion althought i have heard of people pushing upwards of 350k and beyond on their luminas on an original engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbex Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Haha true, but thats only if he fixes the problem with those parts. Either way , an american car with 270K is nearing its end in my opinion althought i have heard of people pushing upwards of 350k and beyond on their luminas on an original engine. Yeah but the parts mentioned are more than likely the issue. So chances are if he replaced everything it'd still be cheaper than a different car... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ristin Posted August 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Thanks for the tips and things to check. It's not my car, and I agree it should be retired and replaced with a younger car. I could see and feel that it needs other repairs but it was getting the job done for Rosey. Her income is about $650 a month. I have no idea how she will get the car fixed or replace with a less worn out car. If I end up working on it further I will take a known good battery with me and see if that makes any difference. I'll report back any progress if any. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ristin Posted August 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 about the old battery. I think it is past its prime. When the car is running there is 13.8v at the positive terminal so the alternator is OK. Engine off, the battery holds at 12 volts, but after 3-4 engine restart attempts the batt voltage drops to 10 and has to be jumped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurkey Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 about the old battery. I think it is past its prime. When the car is running there is 13.8v at the positive terminal so the alternator is OK. Engine off, the battery holds at 12 volts, Battery fully charged = 12.6--12.7 Open Circuit Voltage. Battery at 12.5 O. C. volts is 1/4 discharged Battery at 12.2 O. C. volts is 1/2 discharged Battery at 12 volts is pretty dismal. but after 3-4 engine restart attempts the batt voltage drops to 10 and has to be jumped. Wouldn't surprise me to find that after getting the voltage where it should be, all the other "problems" vanish. Of course, you won't know that until you fix the low-voltage condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91luminaz34 Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 If you can still look at the car, there's a couple of things u can check. I noticed that you checked the 5 volt reference, but what was the battery voltage at the time and where was the ground on the voltmeter. There needs to be a fully charged battery and the ground of the voltmeter needs to be on the battery negative terminal. Also check if there is a 5 volt reference at the intake air temp sensor. I think it should have one. If there is 5 volts you can splice a new wire there and run that to both of the sensors. Just make sure that you cut the reference wire to those sensors do not splice. If you don't have 5 volts at the intake air temp sensor then you would need to go to the pcm and find the wire there. cut the wire at the pcm, leaving enough room to repair, and test for 5 volts there. If there is then there is a definite wiring issue. You can either then run new wire from pcm to all components requiring that 5 volt or find the fault in the wire. this process will require a good wire diagram reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91luminaz34 Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 There is a few things I need to correct with my previous statment. I have since looked at a wire diagram, should've first. Do not tap off of the intake air temp. the 5 v reference for the map sensor also feeds the a/c preasure sensor, you can check for 5v there. the tps sensor has its own 5v reference. you can check for 5v at pcm on conector c, pin 12 for tps and at pin 7 for map. there is a connector c102b pin d for tps and pin a for the map. connector c102b is in Front of RH strut tower, below RS Electrical Center. should be really easy to get to. If you find 5 volts there cut and run new wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ristin Posted October 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 I hate when threads don't have an ending or follow up. I never got a chance to look at the car again. She ended up junking it. Probably for the best. Thanks for the help. This is a great site! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderwolf42 Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 my lumina is having similar problem. i dont know what to check anymore, everything i replace has no effect, in fact it has only gotten worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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