Door speakers

[xtremerevolution]

whatever dude. its not required when you have a sealed enclosure for your mid. that is completely a retarded thing to say when you know my mid is sealed off from the door anyway. How do I "require" it if I have a sealed enclosure for my 4" midrange in my W?

 

just wait till you get crocodile door try and bite off your leg.

 

one of the reasons I prefer the 88 body style over the 90 tgp's. the door is lighter and easier to use because no body cladding. no way I will be putting a giant magnet 6 in the door and a shitload of deadening material in to poop up the doors.

 

You don't need a "shitload." You need just enough to cover most of the panels. Not exactly a difficult thing to do.

 

As for giant magnet 6 in the door, you're right, you don't need one. Many people go with a 7", an 8", and some people have attempted a 10" midbass in their door over on diyma.com. The weight increase in the door is entirely insignificant, especially when you consider the weight of the driver is near the hinge. The reason why people put drivers in their doors is for midbass. Sealed pods also control excursion, and without a very good EQ, you need some form of excursion to produce midbass frequencies, hence the door installs. How exactly have you taken care of your frequency response from 90hz to 250hz, and don't say "my JL audio stuff is so great it does it because of [insert random patent here].

 

You have experiments. Everyone else I've talked to have measurements. You ever taken an RTA system to your car sound system to measure your frequency response?

[xtremerevolution]

I'll have to take a pic of what I'm looking at here. Basically the speaker is bigger than the door panel where the stock speakers mount

 

Z34guy, I unfortunately can't find an eBay link to the speakers I used. Not surprising since IIRC they were a factory closeout when I got them 3 years ago There are MB Quart comps on eBay for $60 shipped though: http://cgi.ebay.com/MB-QUART-FSB-213-5-25-2-way-Component-Car-Speakers-/290581890525?pt=Car_Speakers&hash=item43a807c5dd

 

Well, get me a picture and we can go from there.

[Garrett Powered]

I am not mad though. feel free to do as you please.

 

PM me if you want to discuss my point against installing woofers in doors. I have plenty of evidence from my past experiments.

 

 

I just don't want to get this thread locked up for anyone from bickering about something when I have already made my point. I think you have too.

[white4d96]

So both of you take it to PM's?

 

Seriously. No offense but the back-and-forth is getting old. Can't we just agree to disagree?

[xtremerevolution]

So both of you take it to PM's?

 

Seriously. No offense but the back-and-forth is getting old. Can't we just agree to disagree?

 

When there's a matter of opinion, yes, I can agree to disagree. However, when its a matter of science and fact and advice is being given, that's a different story. Very few things irritate me more than when bad or half-truth advice is being given that has the potential to cause someone to make a bad decision. Tell the whole story or don't tell it at all, and bring some proof to back up claims or don't make them at all.

Edited July 18, 2011 by xtremerevolution

[BXX]

When there's a matter of opinion, yes, I can agree to disagree. However, when its a matter of science and fact and advice is being given, that's a different story. Very few things irritate me more than when bad or half-truth advice is being given that has the potential to cause someone to make a bad decision. Tell the whole story or don't tell it at all, and bring some proof to back up claims or don't make them at all.

 

I think your a jerk, I dont need proof cause im awsome like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Garrett Powered]

if someone makes a bad decision its not like anyone is going to blame you. people are allowed to gather evidence and I am prepared to accept the fact that they can decide for themselves.

[Z34guy]

So this is what happens to a thread I ask for advice in, when I leave to go play The Sims 2?......

 

:lol::lol:

 

Also, the arguments are over my head. I can understand putting in sound deadening though. I'm not into stereo systems. I'll freely admit I don't know squat about installing them. I just follow a motto of "if it breaks, make it better" which I try to go through with.

[white4d96]

I wouldn't go overboard on speakers especially for your first "system." I wouldn't personally spend more than say $60. Absolute max $75.You could get great speakers online with that budget.

[Z34guy]

lol. Read. Earlier I DID say my limit was about 50-60 bucks. I'm not stupid enough to go big bucks for a "system" immediately. and I wouldn't refer to it as a system since I'm only replacing worn out speakers. Just looking at the speakers in my doors with the door panel off, you can tell they're worn out, with small portions literally falling off.

[xtremerevolution]

lol. Read. Earlier I DID say my limit was about 50-60 bucks. I'm not stupid enough to go big bucks for a "system" immediately. and I wouldn't refer to it as a system since I'm only replacing worn out speakers. Just looking at the speakers in my doors with the door panel off, you can tell they're worn out, with small portions literally falling off.

 

In that case, these should do wonderfully:

 

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_33020_MB-Quart-FSB-213.html

[Addicted2bass]

In that case, these should do wonderfully:

 

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_33020_MB-Quart-FSB-213.html

 

x2. Thats a real good entry level comp set for the price.

[white4d96]

I linked to those back on page two. Should be a great set.

[Z34guy]

thanks for the advice. I'll see how it pans out.

[Garrett Powered]

So this is what happens to a thread I ask for advice in, when I leave to go play The Sims 2?......

 

:lol::lol:

 

Also, the arguments are over my head. I can understand putting in sound deadening though. I'm not into stereo systems. I'll freely admit I don't know squat about installing them. I just follow a motto of "if it breaks, make it better" which I try to go through with.

 

 

 

If you were a conductor for a symphony orchestra and you were responsible for reproducing a piece. say you have certain students who were better than others. say for the violin you have some real talent.... and then one guy sucked. you would be thinking hmmm, what can I do to make it better? you are responsible for the audience who is paying to see this.. if you will....

 

you have two options, work and train the guy to be a better musician, or take the easy way out and stuff his violin with some polyfill and sound deadener on the back. that way he can't be heard. the audience will be ripped off but the conductor will escape ridicule and the instrument maker gets the blame.

[Z34guy]

makes sense.

[Garrett Powered]

yeah its like they talk about moore's law in the 60's, Iron law more recently, and it gets to the point that analog dominates over digital when you use instruments to compute. they say the human brain is the most powerful computer. well things are also improving the most by simplifying recently with technology. and they are trying to mimic the human brain using modern processors like going back to the roots in the period of enlightenment when orchestras and great composers dominated. tell those guys they would be in a car playing someday and they would be like

 

a podded mid is like a little instrument playing, like a guitar in your door. it was digital at one point when it got compressed but you are more sophisticated analog living computer processing it. you are the conductor and history has proven that conductorless orchestras were one of the worst ideas ever. and this helps demonstrate why I say do what you want. I am not some commie bastard.

[xtremerevolution]

You have repeatedly avoided and failed to answer my question earlier. With a podded mid that controls excursion, where do you get your midbass output between 80-100hz and 250hz?

 

Sent from my HTC Awesome using Tapatalk

[white4d96]

TBH I fail to understand what keeping a bad-sounding violin quiet with Polyfil has to do with car audio either. Are you trying to imply that deadener is just masking bad equipment?

[Garrett Powered]

the violin mimics the pod. the violin is a tuned instrument which everything must be perfect for it to put out good sound. the strings must be tight and tuned. it cant have cracks in the wood and loose parts.

 

I was comparing that to car audio in the sense that a sealed enclosure is like an instrument in that way. you cant have leaks and you must use the right air space and material for it to sound as intended. however the deadener is a good idea if you do not have any pods.

 

you should be fine with just traditional install in the doors with however you decide you like the way it sounds. use the equalizer to tune in the desired frequencies as they sound the best to the limits of your equipment. I hope this is satisfactory for a response to xtremerev since I can't remember how my equalizer is tuned right now.

[xtremerevolution]

the violin mimics the pod. the violin is a tuned instrument which everything must be perfect for it to put out good sound. the strings must be tight and tuned. it cant have cracks in the wood and loose parts.

 

I was comparing that to car audio in the sense that a sealed enclosure is like an instrument in that way. you cant have leaks and you must use the right air space and material for it to sound as intended. however the deadener is a good idea if you do not have any pods.

 

you should be fine with just traditional install in the doors with however you decide you like the way it sounds. use the equalizer to tune in the desired frequencies as they sound the best to the limits of your equipment. I hope this is satisfactory for a response to xtremerev since I can't remember how my equalizer is tuned right now.

 

Every person I've seen who ran podded mids ran a midbass in the kick panels for that midbass output as part of a 3-way setup. The reason is because a sealed enclosure significantly controls output. You can EQ the hell out of it and cabin gain will help you, but you will only get so far. As you increase power with an EQ to overcome that air suspension, your limits become the thermal power handling of that driver. Each one of them acknowledged the need for a 3-way to support the lower midbass register that the small pods couldn't produce as well. There's no doubt the midrange will sound better coming from a sealed pod. Kick panels are a terrible place for a midbass and a tweeter since they're both severely off-axis. Its bad for sound stage, and bad for sound quality, but to do it right, you need to have a good 3 way setup, which is complicated enough to where anyone asking for advice on door speakers is probably not going to be ready for it. As a result, you have to give the best advice with regard to what the person has to work with, and in that regard, midbass in kick panels requires the best inner door skin sealing and dampening you can give it. If I had the money to run a 3-way active, I'd be doing the same thing, but its a bit more complicated. There's no argument it sounds better.

[Garrett Powered]

if I had a 2 way 4" component set I would use the same exact sealed pod in the door and cut off the lower frequencies with the EQ on the HU for the front channel. that way the cone doesn't have too much excursion.

 

the thermal capacity of the driver would be less of a concern. I won't have to push those too hard for midbass because A) I have more sound coming out the front of the cone and less sound being wasted and absorbed by the deadener. C) the rear channel has midbass to back me up. I have 2 sealed pods with 5" drivers where the 6x9's were to handle the lower midranges. I am less concerned with the axis of the mids and I have tried to give real life examples of why. when someone is playing acoustic guitar does it sound better if you stick your ear right in front of the strings? or is it more likely you would be somewhere in the audience?

 

I use a guitar as an example because the bandwidth heard with that instrument is in range of what that type of driver should be tuned for because it has the best design to produce those frequencies. if you wanted to be in the sound stage, you would not want to be back stage behind the artist, right? you would want to be out in the amphitheater somewhere at least which gives you a clear shot at hearing it well. that gives you plenty of choices as to where you could stand or sit, and hear it well. the acoustic guitar has been designed to take the strings vibrations and amplify them out across an audience of thousands of people in an amphitheater. and if they can do this with no amp or speakers, then I think my axis for my midrange will be fine.

 

its so complicated that thousands of years ago the ancient greeks already had an acoustically perfect amphitheater by todays standards.

[xtremerevolution]

if I had a 2 way 4" component set I would use the same exact sealed pod in the door and cut off the lower frequencies with the EQ on the HU for the front channel. that way the cone doesn't have too much excursion.

 

the thermal capacity of the driver would be less of a concern. I won't have to push those too hard for midbass because A) I have more sound coming out the front of the cone and less sound being wasted and absorbed by the deadener. C) the rear channel has midbass to back me up. I have 2 sealed pods with 5" drivers where the 6x9's were to handle the lower midranges. I am less concerned with the axis of the mids and I have tried to give real life examples of why. when someone is playing acoustic guitar does it sound better if you stick your ear right in front of the strings? or is it more likely you would be somewhere in the audience?

 

I use a guitar as an example because the bandwidth heard with that instrument is in range of what that type of driver should be tuned for because it has the best design to produce those frequencies. if you wanted to be in the sound stage, you would not want to be back stage behind the artist, right? you would want to be out in the amphitheater somewhere at least which gives you a clear shot at hearing it well. that gives you plenty of choices as to where you could stand or sit, and hear it well. the acoustic guitar has been designed to take the strings vibrations and amplify them out across an audience of thousands of people in an amphitheater. and if they can do this with no amp or speakers, then I think my axis for my midrange will be fine.

 

its so complicated that thousands of years ago the ancient greeks already had an acoustically perfect amphitheater by todays standards.

 

Let me clarify a few things. To start, you need excursion to create midbass frequencies. No other way around it. If you can't produce midbass, you're missing a part of the frequency response. Why do you need to produce midbass? Because as your frequency goes up, the sound becomes increasingly directional. In my car, you can't hear where the bass is coming from, because I have the sub and front comps crossed low enough to where the front comps take care of the midbass.

 

Thermal capacity is only a concern when you control excursion severely, then EQ the hell out of it to get more midbass and start putting a lot of power through the driver to make the excursion you need to produce midbass frequencies. To create bass, you need to move air, pure and simple. If you're not doing that, there's no issue.

 

Deadener doens't absorb sound coming from the cone. Deadener absorbs panel resonances created by the sound coming out of the cone. There are audio clips online of what a deadened and non-deadened door sounds like. Whenever I drive my wife's car, I can't stand turning up the volume because of the amount of panel resonance coming from the front doors. Its pretty bad. It just sounds terrible and hurts to listen to. Deadening the doors doesn't reduce the output of the actual cone though.

 

Usually, when you listen to someone playing a guitar and close your eyes, you can tell where the guitar is coming from; in front of you. If you want to create a spacial effect, you need to play full range rears with a 20ms delay, with your fader set way toward the front. This will make your small car cabin sound like a large room and create an accurate front stage. Having your midbass way back makes it feel like your guitar, vocals, and cymbals are playing up front, while your kick drum and other larger drums are behind you. Not the best for an accurate front stage unless you want an "in the club" feel with random instruments in random locations.

 

Make sense? This is not just coming from me by the way. You can visit a myriad of audio forums online and you will find this common wisdom on all of them.

 

One guy I know of is actually going to be running a dedicated 4-way setup for ideal sound staging. Tweeter, upper midrange, and midrange will be mounted in sealed pods. The upper midrange will be crossed at around 250hz. His 8" midbass will be mounted in the kick panel in a large sealed box and will be crossed at around 65hz, while his sub will take care of the rest down to 20hz. Why is he doing this? To make everything sound like its coming in front of you. He's using a few small speakers in the rear with a 20ms delay to create a spacial effect.

 

Not saying your system doesn't sound alright, but I'm telling you what people are doing these days and what is universally considered to be a good front sound stage.

[Garrett Powered]

I am just saying what sounds good today is not the result of a committee of DIY enthusiasts in some forum pounded out and tried so hard to apply it to their community.

 

it is a result of thousands of years of known truths that dates back to near the dawn of civilization.

 

in fact the farther I go back in history and what they learned are what clarify things the most for me. so I could care less what the majority believe is the ticket to success.

[slick]