My System

[92EuroScott]

Right now I'm just going to list everything, tomorrow I will get pictures of what I have.

I'm ordering these for my dash tomorrow. http://www.audiosavings.com/products/Website/CADENCE-CS2.46-4x6-CAR-SPEAKERS-240-WATT-2-WAY-PAIR-NEW/CS2.46.aspx

I currently have these sitting in my dash till my 4x6's get here, once they do these will be going in my doors. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_18260_JVC-CS-XM620.html

These are in my rear deck, had them in my truck before I got the Lumina. http://www.audiosavings.com/products/Car-Speakers/PAIR-HIFONICS-1000w-6.5-6-1-2-COMPONENT-CAR-SPEAKERS/ZXI6.5C.aspx

And in the trunk, I currently have 2 12" mixmatched sonys, on an mtx 251-d. I plan to get 1 15" DC level 4 eventually.

[white4d96]

FYI I got those Hifonics comps at sonicelectronix.com for like $65.

[92EuroScott]

Yea, I ordered them from audiosavings, and the next day found them on sonic for $10 less. Nothing I could do then, but good speakers IMO.

[white4d96]

Maybe I should read.

 

I was hoping you were gonna make those into doors, I wanna do that with mine but duno where to put them yet lol

[92EuroScott]

I would, but there just isn't enough room for them. The JVC speakers I have are shallow and will fit no problem.

[xtremerevolution]

I would, but there just isn't enough room for them. The JVC speakers I have are shallow and will fit no problem.

 

Even with 1/2" or 3/4" MDF rings?

[92EuroScott]

I think they might then, but I like them in the spot they're in. Plus I'd have to get some speakers for the rear deck again.

 

I'm gonna go out and get pics of everything in a bit.

[xtremerevolution]

I think they might then, but I like them in the spot they're in. Plus I'd have to get some speakers for the rear deck again.

 

I'm gonna go out and get pics of everything in a bit.

 

Your best speakers should be in the front. The rear only for fill and passenger comfort. The way rear speakers are set up makes them practically useless for any real music listening.

 

You should have some very low powered speakers back there and have your fader set way forward so that the music sounds like its coming from right in front of you, not from behind you.

[92EuroScott]

Well the JVC's in my dash right now I hear more than the hifonics in the rear, and thats also the reason I'm gonna put the JVCs in my doors along with the Cadences I'm putting in the dash. I also don't have the money or resources to put them in the doors and make it look good. I don't want it looking half-assed. Everything in my truck was put together really bad, and I don't want to do that again.

[92EuroScott]

sub amp

I got these sonys for $100 in the box back when I didn't know anything about car audio.

The 6.5" mid-bass are under the rear deck cover, but here is where I have the tweets mounted.

[xtremerevolution]

Well the JVC's in my dash right now I hear more than the hifonics in the rear, and thats also the reason I'm gonna put the JVCs in my doors along with the Cadences I'm putting in the dash. I also don't have the money or resources to put them in the doors and make it look good. I don't want it looking half-assed. Everything in my truck was put together really bad, and I don't want to do that again.

 

They won't fit behind the grilles with 1/2" spacers? All you need to do is make sure that the excursion doesn't hit the grille.

 

If not, good luck, but IMO its useless putting a nice driver in the rear deck as anything you put back there is for rear fill only and will sound like garbage.

[92EuroScott]

My Lumina is a 4 door so anything I do with the 6.5" driver is gonna take some work. The only way I would put components in my front doors is if I could get a decent 4" set for cheap.

[xtremerevolution]

My Lumina is a 4 door so anything I do with the 6.5" driver is gonna take some work. The only way I would put components in my front doors is if I could get a decent 4" set for cheap.

 

Never owned a 4 door lumina, is it really that much work to get a larger driver in there?

 

What's in there from the factory?

 

As for 4" comps, those wouldn't provide enough midbass to be particularly useful and you'd have a bit of trouble blending your subs to the rest of your speakers. You'd basically have a gap between the upper limits of your subs (I'd give it 80hz for sony xplods) and 175hz on 4" components.

[92EuroScott]

Nothing is in there, in a 4 door your front speakers are in the dash. There is a hole behind the panel that my JVC's fit in with the window down, but the motor on my 6.5"s are far too big and would hit the window.

[white4d96]

It could be done with a spacer. I've been scoping the same spot on my car. Unfortunately, the design of the GP door panels means I would have some serious hackage to do if I wanted that to work, not to mention I would lose 2/3 of my cupholders

[Garrett Powered]

4" comps are garbage? rear speakers are garbage? sounds like a bunch of garbage talk.god damn bullshiut

[white4d96]

I'm gonna side with Andrei on this one. I have never been impressed with 4" comps standalone. Ever. Even the $$$ Polks. Now if you had a dedicated midbass driver that's another story, but more complication than most would be willing to add in.

[Garrett Powered]

build a set of pods if you want midbass. even if they are very little air space, all you need is a little suspension for some nice 4s to get enough midrange for a car system.

 

you guys have late 90's w's. early 90's 1st gens have pods in the doors that are perfect for a 4" AND you can seal them off pretty easy.

 

 

 

OK this bugs me. I am not pissed off or nothing but tell me why rear channels should not sound good in a car. if rear is for fill only, then why are HU's equipped with 20x4 or 30x4 watt amps. all 4 channels have the same amount of watts, right? then you can fade it to front or rear, whether it is a big 4 channel amp or stock power, you have the same amount of power to use. might as well have good ones back there obviously.

 

I am getting told to, pretty much, install crappy speakers in place of the rear 6x9's when I have the power and good money to spend on good rear speakers and pods back there for the cone suspension and ultimate mid bass since that is the only place that there is any room for it anyway in early 90's w's.

 

next you are going to tell me that the ear will hear the sound differently and give me a poor experience because it originates from the back seat area. I am calling what, is it not going to be as "Musical"?

[92EuroScott]

No, what he is saying is don't worry as much about rear speakers, not put shitty ones in there. I've have nicer speakers in my rear deck than in my dash and I hear my fronts over the rear all the time.

 

In other news, ordered my 4x6's just now.

[Garrett Powered]

don't worry about the back as much... ok, don't worry about having good midrange and SQ either. because you certainly will not be able to get much sound out of cheap 4x6's with no cone suspension as opposed to high powered components. then you will thank yourself for having good rear speakers.

 

see what I mean?

[RobertISaar]

MC:

4-way 5 1/4s in front

3-way 6 X 9s in back

Depth Charge amp that runs 50W RMS to the rear 6X9s

 

if i balance/fade them enough, i can clearly hear a difference between just fronts and just rears.

[92EuroScott]

Well the subs in the trunk kind of cover up the mids in the back when they are going anyways, and thats also why I'm gonna have the 6s in the doors and the 4x6s up top. If I sat in the back seat ever, maybe I'd worry about the back more.

[xtremerevolution]

4" comps are garbage? rear speakers are garbage? sounds like a bunch of garbage talk.god damn bullshiut

 

I wasn't born yesterday. If you have questions, ask, don't assume I'm an idiot and that I'm spewing bullshit.

 

Its something the SQ world calls staging. You want the music to sound like its coming from in front of you or right in your face, not behind you. Head over to DIYMA and they can explain it to you better than I can. Many people don't run rear fill at all. Here, I'll quote some people:

 

If you feel the need to entertain rear passengers its a consideration but even so Id turn it down until it was barely audible if cruising solo. For the most part rear fill will just pull your soundstage backwards and I like to hear music and even "see" it coming from out in front of me.

If you have a system with a good front stage and decent dynamics, you'll never miss rear speakers at all. In fact the other day I was playing my system for someone that doesn't know much about audio and he asked if there where speakers in the rear, I said no, and he almost couldn't believe all the sound was just 5 speakers, 4 up front and one sub.

 

If your system sounds decent, you're not missing anything without rear speakers. My "rear fill" is what ever natural reverberations that take place in the car.

"rear fill" encompasses many possibilities :

 

- simple, attenuated L and R

- delayed (beyond Precedence, or Haas, Effect), attenuated, bandlimited L and R

- delayed, attenuated, bandlimited difference signal, L-R

 

there's a world of difference between these options. Some will confuse the front stage, others will enhance the front stage.

Unless you have a surround processor to send a true rear surround signal to your rears, I don't recommend rear satellites. Rears in stereo or mono just mess up the center stage.

Do some research on sound stage before you write me off as bullshit.

 

As for 4" components, garbage. You need cone area to produce good midbass or your output below 200hz will suffer significantly and your music will sound hollow and empty.

 

 

 

build a set of pods if you want midbass. even if they are very little air space, all you need is a little suspension for some nice 4s to get enough midrange for a car system.

 

you guys have late 90's w's. early 90's 1st gens have pods in the doors that are perfect for a 4" AND you can seal them off pretty easy.

 

 

 

OK this bugs me. I am not pissed off or nothing but tell me why rear channels should not sound good in a car. if rear is for fill only, then why are HU's equipped with 20x4 or 30x4 watt amps. all 4 channels have the same amount of watts, right? then you can fade it to front or rear, whether it is a big 4 channel amp or stock power, you have the same amount of power to use. might as well have good ones back there obviously.

 

I am getting told to, pretty much, install crappy speakers in place of the rear 6x9's when I have the power and good money to spend on good rear speakers and pods back there for the cone suspension and ultimate mid bass since that is the only place that there is any room for it anyway in early 90's w's.

 

next you are going to tell me that the ear will hear the sound differently and give me a poor experience because it originates from the back seat area. I am calling what, is it not going to be as "Musical"?

 

I went over it earlier. There are environments where rear fill can be done correctly. If you time offset the rear speakers by ~20ms and tune the volume correctly, you can make your car's sound stage sound MUCH larger than it actually is, almost as if you're sitting inside a concert hall or at a bar with a live band, not inside a small cube. However, doubled stereo rear fill needs to be adjusted so the sound doesn't feel like its coming from behind you. Its not so important because the reflections of the sound against the glass causes all sorts of distortion. Speakers are intended to be heard with line of sight, which is why rear speakers shouldn't be focused on very much. Very little power will be going to them in a well designed system as they will be used for rear ambience, not for producing loud music unless you have passengers.

 

Because the reflections against the rear glass cause all sorts of issues, a lot of weight doesn't need to be placed on their quality. In addition, the change in distance from the front speakers also causes issues with time alignment, which will also reduce the quality of your sound. It will just sound...off.

 

Seriously, try it. Fade in your speakers toward the front, to where it sounds like the music is right in front of you. Drive like that for a week or so, then try fading it back to 50/50 front/rear and see what its like. You may never go back.

 

Now, rear speakers have commonly been used for bass output in order to save trunk space. Many cars do this as its essentially an infinite baffle setup.

 

As for pods, I wouldn't recommend it unless you know exactly what you're doing, have a very good equalizer, and know how to tune the sound. Excursion control is good with subwoofers when all you're giving them is bass and cabin gain helps you, but speaker pods control excursion to such an extent that you may not get any bass out of them and will require massive amounts of equalization to get them to sound right. The airspace in a door is significantly higher than the airspace in a pod.

 

No, what he is saying is don't worry as much about rear speakers, not put shitty ones in there. I've have nicer speakers in my rear deck than in my dash and I hear my fronts over the rear all the time.

 

In other news, ordered my 4x6's just now.

 

That might be because your front speakers may be more sensitive. This is an invalid comparison unless you can output match both speakers prior to install to determine what the gains should be. If they were both from the same lineup of speakers, this would be a more valid comparison. If I put a 92db sensitivity speaker up front and a beefy 85db sensitivity speaker in the rear, its pretty obvious the front will be louder. Its all in the tuning at that point. Switch your fronts with your rear,s, and the rears will sound louder.

 

don't worry about the back as much... ok, don't worry about having good midrange and SQ either. because you certainly will not be able to get much sound out of cheap 4x6's with no cone suspension as opposed to high powered components. then you will thank yourself for having good rear speakers.

 

see what I mean?

 

The midrange should not be coming from the back. Midrange should be coming from in front of you. In fact, all of your sound should be coming from either everywhere, or right in front of you, but not from behind you. If you close your eyes and picture yourself in a recording studio, you should be able to imagine the artist singing right in front of you.

 

I've argued with you about what SQ is in the past, and while there is a level of preference that comes into play, there is a pretty well agreed on definition with regard to sound staging.

 

If you do place speakers in the dash in pods and manage to equalize them to get some good higher range bass out of them, you will discover that the rear speakers are all but unnecessary as the rear ambience will be created by the front speakers. The reason this is difficult to do with front speakers is due to their location in the door by your feet. Its hard to get any rear ambience when your speakers are firing at your feet.

 

Now, if you don't give a crap about sound staging and are trying to mimic an "in the club" sound, beef up and turn up your rear speakers as much as you want, but for normal music and a more natural sound, it won't sound anywhere near as good.

[xtremerevolution]

Well the subs in the trunk kind of cover up the mids in the back when they are going anyways, and thats also why I'm gonna have the 6s in the doors and the 4x6s up top. If I sat in the back seat ever, maybe I'd worry about the back more.

 

Well designed sub boxes and a well tuned system should not cover up anything. You need midbass drivers beefy enough to produce good sound in the higher bass octaves. Basically, midbass that can go down to at least 90hz linear in a well sealed door. That way, you can cross your subs at 90hz or lower depending on where you have your midbass. The reason for this is that bass gets decreasingly directional the lower the frequencies are. When playing a 20-40hz tone in a room, you shouldn't even be able to point out where the sub is coming from. The bass shouldn't be "coming from" anywhere, it should just exist. Of course, this also has a lot to do with the quality of the subwoofer, as some subs sound more transparent than others, but a well designed box will make even a pair of Sony Xplod subs surprisingly transparent.

[Garrett Powered]

how can you seal up a door enough to provide the suspension a driver needs to reach full output? answer: you cant.

 

separating the front from rear is all you can do and that will give you the equivalent of a free-air suspension driver.

 

we all know what about free air drivers? yes that is right, they fart and pop when you turn it up. no way you will be able to use your 150x4 amp without busting leads on your driver. they are made for sealed boxes with suspension. home or car. I had some real expensive 3-way components blow a driver and I had to send it back through my local JL dealer in town. I made some fiberglass pods and turned up the volume to the same level and lo-and-behold they had actual midrange tight bass up in the higher frequencies and lower midrange area of bandwidth.

 

then I put in the rear pods and it added even more great sound. so I don't see what you are saying makes any sense at all. sorry.