3800 swap questions

[Shade]

Hi guys, I'm new to the whole forum thing, so I apologize if I've done something wrong.

 

But I have a 92 lumina Z34 with the 5 speed that I'm rounding up pats to do a 3800 series 3 swap on and I've got a whole boat load of questions that I can't seem to find any answers for.

 

First and most important is the motor mounts, which ones do I need for my frame/motor?

 

I'm keeping the 5 speed and I know I need a 3800 flywheel from a camero or firebird and it will need turned down. To what spec?

 

I will be converting the car to OBD2 also and I have a lead on a 96 GP that I can get the wireing from and I plan to run a 98 GP pcm and engine harness on the motor. Will all this work together? I will have the pcm reprogrammed if it will help.

 

I will need to convert the motor to drive-by-cable which throttlebody will I need? (it's a series 3 non supercharged)

 

That pretty much wraps up the questions for now, if I think of something else I'll let you know! Thanks in advance!

Edited May 27, 2011 by Shade

[jman093]

Not sure about most of that, but get a subframe/mounts and wiring harness from a 98-99 Monte Carlo/Lumina with a 3800.

[BXX]

The 96 GP wiring harness wont do you a bit of any good.

 

 

Pretty much all needed parts will be from a 98-99 Lumina/MC with the 3800 S2.

 

You will need to get the PCM reflashed to get the VATS disabled, or the car wont run. Other way to do it is wire in a VATS module with a resistor wired into the key circuit and then wire the VATS enable out the the PCM.

[white4d96]

IIRC 3800's need an oil filter adapter to clear the 5-speed. I forget who has them.

[Euro]

IIRC 3800's need an oil filter adapter to clear the 5-speed. I forget who has them.

 

I think it's from a LeSabre? Or Reatta?

 

For the cable driven throttle, you'll have to either make a TB adapter...or I believe ZZP sells one if you can't/aren't able to make your own. Or, you can just upgrade to an LS1 or Northstar TB

[Shade]

The GP engine harness I know, but what about the interior harness? My car needs all that replaced too cuz someone that didn't have any beisness working on it really screwed things up. I forgot to mention I'm doing a dash swap too, and that same GP has the dash AND the interior harness that go together.

[Shade]

I think it's from a LeSabre? Or Reatta?

 

For the cable driven throttle, you'll have to either make a TB adapter...or I believe ZZP sells one if you can't/aren't able to make your own. Or, you can just upgrade to an LS1 or Northstar TB

 

I can probably find a ls1 TB rather easy. So it will bolt right on?

[Shade]

Not sure about most of that, but get a subframe/mounts and wiring harness from a 98-99 Monte Carlo/Lumina with a 3800.

 

Ok. Do I really "need" to have the subframe of could I drill mine?

[White93z34]

the subframe is the same...

[Shade]

the subframe is the same...

 

Ok. So I can use 98 Monte motor mounts with my subframe and the s3?

[Shade]

IIRC 3800's need an oil filter adapter to clear the 5-speed. I forget who has them.

 

Right! I was going to use that one relocation adapter that bolts directly to the block. I can't remember what that was called either...

[Bake82]

Intense relocation kit but from what ive been told it may not actually work either. I was talking with Mike from Milzy Motorsports who said he was working on a solution. You may want to talk with him and he says.

[Shade]

Intense relocation kit but from what ive been told it may not actually work either. I was talking with Mike from Milzy Motorsports who said he was working on a solution. You may want to talk with him and he says.

 

I heard it was clearance issues with the hoses...

[xtremerevolution]

I've gone down this road and ended up selling my 5 speed to someone else who didn't have a 3800. I have an L67 with a good number of mods (3.4 pulley, headers, cai, exhaust, tune), in my 95 Regal and the biggest thing that steered me away was the 5 speed swap. It was simply way too much work and way too expensive. To date I still don't know what oil filter adapter would fit properly. I was going to experiment with a few factory GM oil filter adapters, and I even started a thread about it on here, but the headache was not worth it.

 

Supposedly Kuntzie on this forum figured out how to do it, and he came back recently saying it was easy, yet when I needed to get my car done there were no solutions in sight. Seems he only comes in every few weeks to show off something he's done to his car as I was never able to get a straight answer from him.

 

My logic when I was considering it was that it would cost me the same to get a cam put in my L67 and beef up my 4T65E as it would cost to swap the 5 speed in.

 

K I gotta break this down for myself mostly.

 

Your car is currently equipped with a LQ1 3.4L DOHC V6 currently and you want to swap to a 3800 SII or III ? Ok assuming the SIII is the direction you go then you do realize you are swapping out a LQ1 for an L26 right? I'd slow down and thing about it for a minute because its like this:

 

LQ1 3.4 DOHC: 210hp @ 5200rpm; 215tq @ 4400rpm

L26 3800 OHV: 200hp @ 5200rpm; 230tq @ 4000rpm

 

The L26 revs safely to some 5600rpm where the LQ1 revs to what like 7000rpm.... this tells me the LQ might be a little underrated as it is rated some 1800 rpm lower than redline.

 

While its true the LQ1 might be more of a headache for maintenance and such but when properly maintained it is a runner and most guys around here swear by it... Now to your situation, its possible your LQ might be in need of some repair or work as to what prompted the swap, but IMO you would be better off finding another LQ1. Put it on a stand in the garage and go through everything from gaskets, to WP, to timing etc. then bolt that in the car and rebuild or sell your current engine..

 

That way, you won't be hacking up a Z34 car with a plain vanilla 3800, because for 1 that is probably going to be more work than its really worth to gain a lil bit of torque and in the end the car will be basterdized and worth even less. If you really want to go through the headache of a swap.. I'd suggest the supercharged 3800, to make the gains worth while.

 

Why swap? Aftermarket, reliability, and ease of maintenance. It opens up a whole world of performance possibilities, and there's a very big community around the modifications and tuning of the GM 3800.

Edited June 15, 2011 by xtremerevolution

[Dark Ride]

Wiring harness will be difficult but not impossible. When I did mine I chose to adapt the OBD II engine harness to the interior harness at the C100 Firewall connector, there are a lot of differences, but for the most part all the wires were there. OBD I sends most grounds through the connector, versus OBD II grounds most internally. But that is just a matter of splicing in more grounds and grounding them to the inside of the car. There were some issues with the power differences between OBD I & II, I had to run some extra hots to make the OBD I interior harness work. Best way to figure it out is buy the shop manual for your car and the harness donor car, and start matching things up. I got virtually everything from a 99 lumina and I was very glad I owned the donor car, because by the time I was done, I had stripped everything. Accel cables (but you are using drive by wire, so not sure how thats going to work), shift linkage, Im pretty sure you have to use the new cruise control, which is 10X then the vacuum one anyway. I used the mounts as well, but i'm not sure how to make a 5 speed work.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Dark Ride

[xtremerevolution]

IIRC, most people who swap in a Gen5 don't use drive by wire; they either make a Gen3 MAF work, or they go with a Northstar MAF.

[Shade]

Oh cool! Thanks for the recommendation, but I've already got my 3800 out at the shop.

[Shade]

I've gone down this road and ended up selling my 5 speed to someone else who didn't have a 3800. I have an L67 with a good number of mods (3.4 pulley, headers, cai, exhaust, tune), in my 95 Regal and the biggest thing that steered me away was the 5 speed swap. It was simply way too much work and way too expensive. To date I still don't know what oil filter adapter would fit properly. I was going to experiment with a few factory GM oil filter adapters, and I even started a thread about it on here, but the headache was not worth it.

 

Supposedly Kuntzie on this forum figured out how to do it, and he came back recently saying it was easy, yet when I needed to get my car done there were no solutions in sight. Seems he only comes in every few weeks to show off something he's done to his car as I was never able to get a straight answer from him.

 

My logic when I was considering it was that it would cost me the same to get a cam put in my L67 and beef up my 4T65E as it would cost to swap the 5 speed in.

 

 

 

Why swap? Aftermarket, reliability, and ease of maintenance. It opens up a whole world of performance possibilities, and there's a very big community around the modifications and tuning of the GM 3800.

 

Well gosh that's really reassuring. As for the oil filter adapter, did you try the intense relocater? That's what I was going to try but I've heard both good and bad things so I guess it's going to be a gamble...

[Shade]

Wiring harness will be difficult but not impossible. When I did mine I chose to adapt the OBD II engine harness to the interior harness at the C100 Firewall connector, there are a lot of differences, but for the most part all the wires were there. OBD I sends most grounds through the connector, versus OBD II grounds most internally. But that is just a matter of splicing in more grounds and grounding them to the inside of the car. There were some issues with the power differences between OBD I & II, I had to run some extra hots to make the OBD I interior harness work. Best way to figure it out is buy the shop manual for your car and the harness donor car, and start matching things up. I got virtually everything from a 99 lumina and I was very glad I owned the donor car, because by the time I was done, I had stripped everything. Accel cables (but you are using drive by wire, so not sure how thats going to work), shift linkage, Im pretty sure you have to use the new cruise control, which is 10X then the vacuum one anyway. I used the mounts as well, but i'm not sure how to make a 5 speed work.

 

Sounds like you've done this before. So what I have in mind is to run the l27 as a series 2 I'm going to use a l67 TB with a zzp adapter on my motor. As for wiring, I was going to swap the dash and the interior harness along with it. It was coming form a 96 grand prix but the guy decided not to sell it so that screwed me out of my dash and everything. But that's ok, I'll just swap dashes later, as for my wiring I'll have to patch some things up but it should be ok.

[Dark Ride]

A 96 GP interior harness would probably be closer, but I would still be studying wiring schematics, since they may not be the same, plus there may be differences inside the interior harness, such as the C202 at the Steering Column. OBD II also had A LOT more fuses, and they switched to mini fuses, so you would have to swap that. Like I said, it WILL be difficult, but doing the research ahead of time will save you numerous headaches.

[xtremerevolution]

Well gosh that's really reassuring. As for the oil filter adapter, did you try the intense relocater? That's what I was going to try but I've heard both good and bad things so I guess it's going to be a gamble...

 

Didn't try it. I don't have $180 plus shipping lying around.

 

Here, run through these in your head.

 

I paid $300 for the trans and most of the swap parts (which I sold for the same price). In addition, I needed the shift fork assembly, which tacks on another $100 shipped. You're now at $400. The clutch is $275, so you're now at $675. Add another INTENSE relocation adapter plus shipping and you're $875. Add the actual relocation kit and you're at $925. Add axles and you're closer to $975. Add fluids and you're at ~$1000. Add the flywheel and get it machined for another $100.

 

Now, remove $325 for a ZZP VS cam and you're down to $775. That should be more than enough to beef up your 4T65E to take the abuse. In the end, you go faster with the cam and beefed transmission. A lot faster.

[Shade]

Didn't try it. I don't have $180 plus shipping lying around.

 

Here, run through these in your head.

 

I paid $300 for the trans and most of the swap parts (which I sold for the same price). In addition, I needed the shift fork assembly, which tacks on another $100 shipped. You're now at $400. The clutch is $275, so you're now at $675. Add another INTENSE relocation adapter plus shipping and you're $875. Add the actual relocation kit and you're at $925. Add axles and you're closer to $975. Add fluids and you're at ~$1000. Add the flywheel and get it machined for another $100.

 

Now, remove $325 for a ZZP VS cam and you're down to $775. That should be more than enough to beef up your 4T65E to take the abuse. In the end, you go faster with the cam and beefed transmission. A lot faster.

 

Oh yeah I see what you mean if I was swapping it in, but my lumina already has the 284 5 speed in it from the factory. I'm just dealing with the engine side of things.

[xtremerevolution]

Oh yeah I see what you mean if I was swapping it in, but my lumina already has the 284 5 speed in it from the factory. I'm just dealing with the engine side of things.

 

You're going to be dealing with the clutch side of things if you ever top swap the engine, and IIRC the stock 284 clutch won't hold the power. The ugly side of this is that the 284 clutch is 2x as expensive, so you'll still need to find $500-$600. Otherwise, yeah you're at a slight advantage. You'll still need the relocation and the flywheel, so you won't be too far off. The advantage you have is you don't need to find a 4T65E. That tidbit cost me $225, though mine had like 81k miles on it. 23k miles later and its still working perfectly, crossing my fingers.

[Shade]

You're going to be dealing with the clutch side of things if you ever top swap the engine, and IIRC the stock 284 clutch won't hold the power. The ugly side of this is that the 284 clutch is 2x as expensive, so you'll still need to find $500-$600. Otherwise, yeah you're at a slight advantage. You'll still need the relocation and the flywheel, so you won't be too far off. The advantage you have is you don't need to find a 4T65E. That tidbit cost me $225, though mine had like 81k miles on it. 23k miles later and its still working perfectly, crossing my fingers.

 

Yeah if I top swap it I'll go with a spec stage 2 clutch. I was thinking about going automatic before I even started the progect, but the fun factor isn't there like it is with the manual... and it's going to be an expencive little adventure every way you skin it, so that's just what I opted for since it was already in there.

[xennith]

I have mixed feelings about changing up a rare car, but if it doesn't work as is, I say have at it and do what you want!

 

Please keep going on this thread, this is a great way for guys like me to learn. I'm still thinking about doing this to the cheapy we're buying this week and I have no clue where to start.