BXX's Chassis/Suspension Parts and Discussion Thread!!

[BXX]

Im gonna start this thread and hope it goes well. Mainly its to showcase the parts I currently make, future plans to make certain parts, requests for certain things within my ability, and mainly questions and comments on working on and modifying your suspension!

 

First up are some pics of parts fresh from the welder. These are already claimed gents:thumbsup: I can make anything to order, your wish is my command:D:lol:

 

Front and rear coilover mounts. Spherical bearing (teflon/kevlar lined) mount, polyurathane spring isolator. These completely replace your entire stock mounts and allow you to run coilovers.

 

 

 

 

Parts layed out.

 

 

Assembled. Needs cleaned and prepped for paint.

 

 

 

Good enough welds for ya?!

 

 

Thats the coilover mounts. Simple effective design:thumbsup:

 

My DIY tubing notcher... works damn good. Using it for the current parts im making. Will have those back from the welder next week and pics up of them!

 

 

 

I bought new lateral arms and trailing arms. Not for my cars, but having a new unbent part as a 'concrete' template makes things much easier.

 

 

These are the Heim joint style and adjustable lateral arms and trailing arms I have made and will currently make as needed. This particular set is Mach 5's (aka Jarek)

 

 

3/4" Kevlar/Teflon lined rod ends, Chromoly QA1 XM-series. Your not gonna break those!

 

 

Pictures of budget trailing arms using standard 5/8" rod ends. First part I made. Pics are on my old 95 CS, but not bolted up. Used my car as mockup and reference.

 

 

 

 

I actually enjoy being out in the garage making these parts! And everyday im thinking of new things to come up with. Unfortunately the main things I wanna make next are front lower control arms, but are currently outta my scope. I will be talking to my welder about him designing some sometime, but lord know what the cost will be!

 

Feel free to ask any questions, even the simplest as what do I need to lower my car and so on!

 

-Bob

[jman093]

First off, thank you for designing and building QUALITY, well-thought-out performance parts for our w's.

 

Have you given consideration as to how your heim joints arms would affect toe change under cornering? Automakers often develop passive rear wheel steer systems with selective bushings of different stiffness. The fact that certain bushings deflect more than others changes the toe in/out throughout compression and extension. The way I invision things, with absolutely zero lateral bushing deflection (since there is no bushing) it would seem that under compression the links are going to become "flatter (more level with the car) and would thus be "longer" per se. This would make the trailing arm want to push the lateral links backwards toeing things out. I wouldn't think the lateral links wouldn't change toe much since there's two heim jointed arms running parallel to eachother but maybe they would toe out the wheel as the push the assembly outward.

 

Rubber bushings I would think are just going be at the mercy of the car's G-forces. The outer ones are going to compress inward and the inner ones are going to extended outward. I guess heavy cornering under either scenario, the way I see things, is going to lead to toe out on compression, toe in on on extension (think Warthog), but I guess I'd like to know how much toe changes and by how much under each setup and whether or not it's going to advantageous or disadvantageous with a zero deflection joint. I'm not sure how this info could ever be obtained though, and it would be likely differ slightly for everybody depending on individual ride height and spring rate of the coilovers.

 

That's what's keeping me from buying the arms in a car I auto-x. The rigidity doesn't sell me. GMPP tubular trailing arms and tubular 2G links (I have both) are completely ample here. Although the stock u-shaped stuff is hardly decent enough for Grandma to get groceries in. A couple of potholes will bend that garbage.

Edited May 7, 2011 by jman093

[white4d96]

Where did you buy the stock tubular arms?

[BXX]

Where did you buy the stock tubular arms?

 

To give me a better template to the parts im making instead of having to take measurements off parts on a car. I can easily double and triple check things as I get the parts made.

 

And jman, I think your at a loss. Mushy bushings will give unwanted and unpredictable toe changes and overall chages in geometry during hard corning and jounce and rebound. OE wants soft ride, not razer sharp reflexes. Any rear race car will be running Heims or stiff Poly or Derlin bushings.

 

Our rear arms are unequal length which under jounce and rebound minimized suspension bind and keeps things as straight as possible. The name of the game is stability:thumbsup: Rubber bushings = things not always doing what they should each time and slop. Slop is bad, Mkay:lol:

[white4d96]

lol not why, where. I may want to pick up a set for my suspension

[BXX]

lol not why, where. I may want to pick up a set for my suspension

 

Ill sell these once im done with them:thumbsup:

[iroc2]

bob you are awesome

 

 

for everyone else, he will help you buld the most badass w-body you will ever own and drive. i cant wait to get all the money togather to lower and put his parts on my car

[jman093]

And jman, I think your at a loss. Mushy bushings will give unwanted and unpredictable toe changes and overall chages in geometry during hard corning and jounce and rebound. OE wants soft ride, not razer sharp reflexes. Any rear race car will be running Heims or stiff Poly or Derlin bushings.

 

Our rear arms are unequal length which under jounce and rebound minimized suspension bind and keeps things as straight as possible. The name of the game is stability:thumbsup: Rubber bushings = things not always doing what they should each time and slop. Slop is bad, Mkay:lol:

 

I don't think I'm conveying my concern real well. I understand the benefits of solid heim joints and essentially zero deflection of the bushing in the arm towards its edges, but the stock bushings are not so mushy that we're getting "slop" or unpredictable toe changes as long as they are not worn out. They deflect laterally (as I call it) in the arm, but deflection is not always a bad thing. Like I said, OE's use bushing deflection all the time to get the camber and toe curves they want. They spend a lot of R&D to achieve these results. That's why multi-link suspensions are becoming so common on new models. They allow custom tailored camber and toe curves and are usually computer-designed. This level of research obviously never went into our w's, but the effects of changing the bushing are just as real, and that's why I feel it important to know what that effect would be.

 

Yes real race applications use heim joints and the like, but they are not using them just because, "We need to eliminate deflection!" They have designed an entire suspension to work together with the heim joints to get the right setup. Heim joints just allow the highest precision to design such a setup. Changing to heim joints on a suspension not engineered to use them may or may not be an improvement over rubber. I've tried to think about it and draw it out but I'm just not sure. It's not as easy (at least for me) to picture out as say our McPherson strut front end, where changing LCA bushings to poly (where unlike our rear arms poly will not cause binding) will nearly eliminate deflection under heavy g-forces and the camber gain that occurs with it. Here it's pretty easy to see why everybody who's done that swap commends it so. The rear with heims I don't know, so that's why I ask if you've given it any thought.

Edited May 8, 2011 by jman093

[BXX]

Ive given it alot of though, and some rear world experience as well over changes in the rear suspension.

 

My old 96 CS currently owned by Venom. Stock suspension with rear coilovers, lowered front. Unstable at best and unpredictable in hard corners. A Toyota Camry would handle much better and be more stable (oh wait, they use a composite spherical bearing in the rear for the lateral arms:thumbsup:)

 

Switch to Gen 2 rear laterals with GMPP trailing, much better, but still quite unpredictable. Aligned to spec, but from so many hard corners, tires would wear highly uneven.. Hmmm, bad and unpredictable toe changes..

 

95 CS aquired on trade from Venom, same suspension setup, except Gen 2 lateral arms with poly bushings. Handling noticable increase and stability better, but still somethings not right. Tire wear more proper. Problem, arms kept bending. Weak arms, possible suspension bind. After great though, most of that is due to sway bar issue and weak arms.

 

Both cars wore the same rim and tire combo and the same alignment specs. Both 2 door coupes. Same roads, same driving habits. The 95 CS woulda handled circles around the 96.

 

Engineers dont rely on bushing mush for geometry, they use the geometry to control camber curves. GM was one of the last manufactures to figure out that even family sedans need to handle. Current cars use Multi-Link, and most use quite stiff bushings.

 

Our cars under jounce and rebound actually have very little toe change:thumbsup: However from the factory with mushy bushings, there is a far amount. Get the car on an alignment rack, get your measurements pulled up. Not jounce the rear pretty damn good watching to see where your measurements go. Trust me, they wander all over the place. Now do that with a car with poly or rear heims on it. Guess what, much more stabile and has very little toe change. Ive done this. I need no other proof myself:thumbsup:

 

Here's a good read from the guys at MotoIQ

 

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1936/the-ultimate-guide-to-suspension-and-handling-part-seven-tuning-your-toe.aspx

 

To control extreme toe changes in the rear on our cars, we need to minimize the large amount of travel on the soft springs. Soft springs with mushy bushings equals loads of unwanted toe changes, unstable camber curve, and just a crappy overall grandma ride and stability. Pair together good stiff springs, right sized sway bar, and firm bushings or Heims, and your rear suspension will thank you. Not only that, next time your in a hard corner and hit a bump, your ass will thank you for not ending up in a ditch.

 

Stability is Key!! If the car is highly stabile, then your more than likely to be able to predict it! We cannot do much with our Geometry. Well most of us cannot. I dont intend to modify our geometry outside of changing track width, cause I still want to show the limits of our cars. While the MacPherson strut suspension has its drawbacks, it is a more simple and ofter lighter suspension which works quite well with our cars.

 

Heres another good read. As a matter of fact, I recommend reading the whole series. Later on once I get the TGP, I will be moving into Roll Centers which is very important.

 

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1491/the-ultimate-guide-to-suspension-and-handling-part-2-controlling-body-motion.aspx

[BXX]

Here, I finally tracked down this. I read this article quite a while back and feel it really applies to the current topic.

 

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1472/project-scion-tc-part-4-suspension-and-brakes.aspx

[BXX]

MOAR PARTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Got these back from my welder, couldnt wait to paint them and put them together.

 

Giggity Giggity!

 

 

 

[intern8tion9l]

wow those are sexy

[White93z34]

Can your arms with poly bushings work on a stock ride height car with the leafspring still?

[Addicted to eaton]

Very solid work bob. Looks to be VERY high Quality!

[BXX]

Can your arms with poly bushings work on a stock ride height car with the leafspring still?

 

I dont see why not. Actually, if I get bored, I may put the rear arms on the vert for the time being so I can get it aligned. A rear arm is currently bent pretty good and im rolling on $1100 worth of tires:confused:

[BXX]

Very solid work bob. Looks to be VERY high Quality!

 

Thanks! I dont fuck around with garbage:thumbsup:

[Mach 5]

ahh I see you borrowed one of my pics.. for now all I can say is that the build quality is awesome and that I cant wait to test them

 

-Jarek

[CSI_MuNkY]

Moving discussion of length from the sale thread,

 

My 1st Gen Held arms are;

 

Lateral links = 23 3/4" C - C

Trailing arms = 21 5/8" C - C

[BXX]

Sweet! Glad you remembered to get those for me.

 

When im in the garage next, I will measure the Dorman replacement Gen 2 arms, and compare those to the measurements I pulled off my vert and had double checked on a customers 94 CS Sedan that was on my lift a while back at work.

 

Jaime, which measurements did you post are actually the lateral arms? Remember the rear mount lateral arm is longer than the front mount one on our cars.

[CSI_MuNkY]

sorry, I must have 2 rear ones here in my office...

As per my discussion with Lee at Held years ago when I got my Helds, my stock arms were 22 1/4" for the front arm and 23 3/4" for the rear arm

[BXX]

Jaime, you have PM.

 

I havent gotten out to the garage as ive screwed my back up, so im pretty much stuck in bed all damn day.

[xtremerevolution]

Bob, you do some damn good work. Hope you get better soon man.

[BXX]

Bob, you do some damn good work. Hope you get better soon man.

 

I hope so too:lol: I gotta work tomorrow...

 

BTW, you coming out this weekend to the meet??

[xtremerevolution]

I hope so too:lol: I gotta work tomorrow...

 

BTW, you coming out this weekend to the meet??

 

Nope. That's a 5 hour drive each way, and I can't afford the gas with the prices they are now.

[timg]

Looks awesome.

 

Tim