ancorder Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 My 1991 Cutlass Supreme (3.1, AT) is at a Fred Meyer parking lot for the night. The bastard wouldn't start to come home. For the last few weeks there's been some weird hesitation when starting. Like you turn the key and it cranks one time immediately, then a brief pause, then it'll crank again and start. Of course that's a problem waiting to happen, and of course I ignored it. Well, now it won't start at all. It cranks one time and then doesn't do anything at all. It *sounds* like a dying/dead battery, but the battery is known good. Just to be safe, I put another known good battery in it. Don't ask my why I had it in the trunk; just did. Tested with multimeter, etc. Yes, power to everything. I just want to double check with the w-body wizards: this is a dying starter, right? A flat spot on the armature? That's what I'm assuming, even though I put a new starter on it about 18 months ago. Stupid rebuilt piece of garbage. Good thing I have the original lying around because I never got off my butt to return it for the core charge. It wasn't broken or anything, I just replaced it because it was 20 years old. Preventative maintenance gone wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 wack the starter with a hammer to get it home, then throw the old one on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 My 1991 Cutlass Supreme (3.1, AT) is at a Fred Meyer parking lot for the night. The bastard wouldn't start to come home. For the last few weeks there's been some weird hesitation when starting. Like you turn the key and it cranks one time immediately, then a brief pause, then it'll crank again and start. Of course that's a problem waiting to happen, and of course I ignored it. Well, now it won't start at all. It cranks one time and then doesn't do anything at all. It *sounds* like a dying/dead battery, but the battery is known good. Just to be safe, I put another known good battery in it. Don't ask my why I had it in the trunk; just did. Tested with multimeter, etc. Yes, power to everything. I just want to double check with the w-body wizards: this is a dying starter, right? A flat spot on the armature? That's what I'm assuming, even though I put a new starter on it about 18 months ago. Stupid rebuilt piece of garbage. Good thing I have the original lying around because I never got off my butt to return it for the core charge. It wasn't broken or anything, I just replaced it because it was 20 years old. Preventative maintenance gone wrong! Don't rule out the possibility of a bad ground to the block or bad power wire to the starter. This will have the exact same symptoms. I would know, it just happened to me a couple of months ago. Check your wiring. If its loose or corroded, fix it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado_735 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 First things first, check all connections from the battery to the starter. Also, don't rule out the solenoid. They cook being so close to the exhaust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 SAME thing happened with wife's LH0 GP... new starter (one from a 3100), problem is no longer. still have the original in case i ever feel like swapping in a good solenoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancorder Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I beat the thing seven ways to sunday and it didn't help start it, so tomorrow after work I'm swapping out the starter & solenoid. Hopefully that works. I've checked battery connections and all appear fine, but I haven't done a good cleaning on them yet. I'll have my wife do that while I'm replacing the starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancorder Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Well, after staying two hours late at work there was less than an hour of light left when I got home, plus a storm rolling in. Good day not to have a garage. I cannot get one of the bolts off. The front mounting bolt on the driver side. For the life of me I cannot wrangle it off, even though I was the one who put it on. I tried a couple different lubricants, different wrenches, approaches, etc. But there is absolutely no room to get in there and get leverage on it. How in the fart am I supposed to get that damn thing off? Why would it be so troublesome? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 i don't remember removal being that difficult.... it was reinstalling that was a PITA.... i'm assuming some A/C stuff is in the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancorder Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Yup, A/C stuff and the generally difficult-to-work-in design of our beloved vehicles. If I has skinny arms with four joints it wouldn't be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancorder Posted April 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 UPDATE: Replaced the starter, didn't help. Absolute pain in the rear to get it replaced (ridiculous amount of time for two bolts and a couple nuts). Turn key, tries to crank once, dies. Tried it with the door open and while I held it in "start" the door chime slowed and faded away like the battery was dying. Weird. Put the multimeter on the starter and it read 11.8 volts while in the "run" position, but when I turned the key to "start" it cratered to 0.69 volts. Once I let off the key it went back to reading 11.8. Not sure what's going on. All the electrical connections & wiring looked good, but they're 20 years old. Should I replace all the wiring? Is it possible that the engine is locked up and the starter simply isn't capable of turning the flywheel? Should I try putting a wrench on the crankshaft pulley and seeing if I can rotate it? I'm a bit buggered by this now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 your battery may have 11.8 volts but can it handle the load of the starter? i'd get a cheapo load tester and see what it says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 I'm putting my money on the battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 I would charge the battery and replace the entire fusible link leads with new wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 Sounds like a bad battery. I would replace battery. I don't remember if the starter is wired to the jumpstart post, but I'd pull the nut off that and clean all the eye terminals really well. Also, I always recommend to use a 3100 starter as a replacement because they are sooooo much smaller and lighter. They're much easier to install and remove so if future you ever has to replace it again, you will thank yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 Its the battery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancorder Posted April 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Okay, folks, here's where I'm at. Charged battery did little to help. Cranked once or twice and then nothing. Every time. Took starter back off along with alternator and took them to a different parts store than had tested them the last time (O'Reilly's instead of Autozone). Alt checked out fine. The starter worked, sort of, but it was drawing 170 amps instead of the 120 it's supposed to, and was turning at about a third the RPMs as it should. So, yes, technically it operates, but not within acceptable parameters, and probably wouldn't have the strength to turn under load (i.e. when against the flywheel) and actually start the car. Correct? So perhaps it is the starter after all. I bit the bullet and bought a reman one (even though I said I was done spending money on this darn car). I also figured, hell, I'll buy new battery cables. Of course anybody who's tried that knows that the OEM style battery cables are hard to come by. So I settled for a negative cable that has a smaller secondary lead off it; I figured since it's just going to ground the gauge doesn't matter too much, plus I can always attach another ground if I need to. I also decided on a positive cable without a secondary lead, which means I will not be reconnecting the jump start post. I don't see why this would be a problem, but if anyone thinks it's stupid, please do tell. I also purchased another 4-gauge cable to run from the alternator to the starter to replace that one. It doesn't *look* bad, but it is 20 years old and has sat right on top of a hot engine its whole life. Can anyone tell me why the cable from the alternator connects to the starter instead of the battery? I know that it just makes contact with the cable from the battery, but why didn't GM just run the alt cable to the battery directly? It seems like an unnecessary juncture to me. Maybe there's a reason for it. Does it provide extra juice to the starter while cranking? Anyway, if it's not raining after work tomorrow I will go out and replace all the battery cables and the starter (again) and put a fully-charged battery in it. If that doesn't fix things I will probably try to sell the car for cheap and move on with life. I've spent so much time and frustration on this thing over the last two years and it's just been one thing after another... Keep fingers crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93cutty Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Has the battery been tested. It sounds like a cell is bad. If you have a bad cell you can charge it all night but when you put a load on it it will fall flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 that secondary wire for the auxiliary positive connection (jump start post), is there for more than just jump starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancorder Posted April 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 that secondary wire for the auxiliary positive connection (jump start post), is there for more than just jump starting. What else is it there for? Has the battery been tested. It sounds like a cell is bad. If you have a bad cell you can charge it all night but when you put a load on it it will fall flat. Batteries have not been professionally tested, but I've got three batteries, all of which read out at ~12.6v, and none of which is more than 5 months old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 from the diagrams i'm looking at, at the very least, it powers the left side electrical center, which runs the ECM, fuel pump relay and has a couple of fusible links as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98LuminaLTZ Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Batteries have not been professionally tested, but I've got three batteries, all of which read out at ~12.6v, and none of which is more than 5 months old. Volts are mostly irrelevant to cranking the starter, AMPS are what cranks the thing, you could be at 12 volts but like 5amps, would run your radio and lights and such, but would fall completely flat trying to turn the starter motor. I would say if you dont have an amperage guage (my el cheapo battery charger has one, but lots of multimeters WONT) take the battery in somewhere and have it tested (most stores battery testers will simulate load to test amperage). If any of those batteries you have have ever been fully discharged, they are more than likely damaged, and will probably NOT ever take a full charge again (though volts MAY come back up to 12, amps will be VERY low), I went through this with my winter beater suburban, I would park it all summer (in MN that's like 3 months:roll: ), battery would drain, and I would have to replace the battery every winter. I have since wised up and bought a smart float charger, keeps it at optimum charge to "maintain" the battery so not to damage it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 most multimeters can measure current, but not at the levels that the starter would draw, you would need either a clamp meter or a shunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancorder Posted April 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Volts are mostly irrelevant to cranking the starter, AMPS are what cranks the thing, you could be at 12 volts but like 5amps, would run your radio and lights and such, but would fall completely flat trying to turn the starter motor. I would say if you dont have an amperage guage (my el cheapo battery charger has one, but lots of multimeters WONT) take the battery in somewhere and have it tested (most stores battery testers will simulate load to test amperage). If any of those batteries you have have ever been fully discharged, they are more than likely damaged, and will probably NOT ever take a full charge again (though volts MAY come back up to 12, amps will be VERY low), I went through this with my winter beater suburban, I would park it all summer (in MN that's like 3 months:roll: ), battery would drain, and I would have to replace the battery every winter. I have since wised up and bought a smart float charger, keeps it at optimum charge to "maintain" the battery so not to damage it. I know this; I just meant that I find it highly unlikely that three batteries could all be dead, so I wasn't going to take the time to go to the parts store with them one at a time on my motorcycle. Since only one has ever been close to a full discharge, I'm banking on at least one of them being in good shape, since they've been fully charged on a float over the past week whiel I've been messing around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancorder Posted April 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 It's alive! New starter (I had them test it at the store before taking it home) and all new battery cables did the trick. Just for giggles, I tested the resistance of the cables, both new and old. I don't have a super fancy multimeter that can get a perfectly precise reading, but I did it anyway. The new cables all clocked in at roughly 0.1 ohms. The old alternator-to-starter cable was at 0.12. The old negative/ground cable was at 0.14, and the old battery-to-starter/jumper post cable was at (yikes!) 5.4. So for fun I rigged a circuit with a 12-volt switch in between and tested the voltage drop from one side to the other. Lost about 2.9 volts. So I guess old cables and a power-hungry dying starter were the trouble. I also swapped in all three of the batteries I had, and all started the engine instantly. Which means I can give the one back to my neighbor, I guess. Anybody in Spokane want a replacement battery for $35? Only two months old. But now we're up and running, or at least it ran for a moment while I had it up on the stands last night. Toady I'll go out and put the covers back on and get it cleaned back up. Thanks, everyone, for the various suggestions and tips. Now I guess I'm running out of excuses not to fix the other things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Glad you fixed it, though from the sound of it, cleaning the terminals on the battery to jump-start post probably would have fixed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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