HHO Hydrogen Fuel Cell How To / Installation and Data Results

[guntotenmadman]

I'm not sure, but did wonder. Whatever it was my truck went from 19-20mpg to 27-28mpg. It would have been nice to know exactly how much was being generated with 20-25 amps. I read now that people are using up to 40amps to produce the brown gas witch would be a little much for a typical alternator. My truck came with a 150amp alternator from the factory, primarily for running trailer accessories. I drove it the same (I never tender-footed it) all the time and it really didn't effect the mileage. I must have made 15 trips back and forth from Mesa to Detroit, thats when I was constantly checking the mileage.

[Hairdo12]

I'm not sure, but did wonder. Whatever it was my truck went from 19-20mpg to 27-28mpg. It would have been nice to know exactly how much was being generated with 20-25 amps. I read now that people are using up to 40amps to produce the brown gas witch would be a little much for a typical alternator. My truck came with a 150amp alternator from the factory, primarily for running trailer accessories. I drove it the same (I never tender-footed it) all the time and it really didn't effect the mileage. I must have made 15 trips back and forth from Mesa to Detroit, thats when I was constantly checking the mileage.

 

You better call Al Gore, you just solved the worlds energy problems by increasing your gas mileage 30%

 

Here are some reads that need to be researched before anyone makes claims that magic is > physics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_conversion_efficiency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_state

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule%27s_laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(thermodynamics)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy (refer to Applications of the concept of energy section)

 

Finally, this paragraph I found says it pretty well:

Many alleged water-fuelled cars obtain hydrogen or a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen (sometimes called "oxyhydrogen", "HHO", or "Brown's Gas") by the electrolysis of water, a process that must be powered with electricity. The hydrogen or oxyhydrogen is then burned, supposedly powering the car and also providing the energy to electrolyse more water. The overall process can be represented by the following chemical equations:

2H2O → 2H2 + O2 [Electrolysis step]

2H2 + O2 → 2H2O [Combustion step]

Since the combustion step is the exact reverse of the electrolysis step, the energy released in combustion exactly equals the energy consumed in the electrolysis step, and—even assuming 100% efficiency—there would be no energy left over to power the car. In other words, such systems start and end in the same thermodynamic state, and are therefore perpetual motion machines, violating the first law of thermodynamics. Furthermore, under actual conditions in which hydrogen is burned, efficiency is limited by the second law of thermodynamics and is likely to be around 20%.[10][11] More energy is therefore required to drive the electrolysis cell than can be extracted from burning the resulting hydrogen-oxygen mixture.

[guntotenmadman]

And all that is totally true if your only using the HHO gas to power the engine, we're not. We're just adding HHO to the system to enhance it. No perpetual motion. Gas or diesel is still being used, just less of it. Adding this system isn't converting it to run on HHO. The electricity is already there, so no extra power is used to convert/extract the HHO from the water.

[RobertISaar]

The electricity is already there, so no extra power is used to convert/extract the HHO from the water.

 

by that logic, i might as well have all of my lights, TV, a/c, heaters, etc, all running at the same time, since the electricity is there, no extra power is used.

 

[BXX]

Yes, extra power is used! Do any of you have any damn clue how a vehicles charging system works??

 

The more load on an altenator (i.e. adding 20 more amps for the HHO system) the more power the engine has to output to keep the altenator spinning at that speed.

 

Heres a quick test for ya. Get a carbon pile load tester, idle the vehicle with a scan tool connected and watch the datastream. Keep putting more and more load on the charging system, you see that to maintain engine rpm, you will see the injector pulse width fatten up and the IAC counts change to let more air in. If the PCM didnt start giving it more fuel and air, the engine would bog out and stall because the altentor requires more power from the engine to keep it spinning for a higher load.

Edited March 8, 2011 by White93z34
Insults are NOT allowed.

[RobertISaar]

^ flipping on the a/c compressor does very much the same thing.

[guntotenmadman]

I was just as skeptical before I actually tried it. I tried it a couple of years before I saw anything on the internet like the water4gas website. All I can say is give it a try and see for yourself, don't knock it before you try it. I did it on a diesel truck so no computer enhancements were needed, if my car didn't get 30 mpg I would probably spend the $400-500 it would take for the components to actually gain good results.

Again, this isn't a conversion from gas or diesel to HHO. With fuel prices reaching toward $4 per gallon again isn't anything worth a try?

[RobertISaar]

isn't anything worth a try?

 

not when it's physically impossible.

[Galaxie500XL]

I found a formula that calculates HP requirements of an alternator based on load:

 

Formula for calculating alternator power requirements...

 

((AMPS LOAD x VOLT CHARGE) / 745.7) +15%

 

 

The amperage multiplied by the voltage equals watts, and 745.7 represents the wattage equal to one horsepower.

.9 HP on average is required to produce a 40A output, 4.6 HP on average is required to produce a 200A output.

As you can see, since our voltage output remains constant, the variable is current output, which will directly impact the amount of energy required from the engine to produce the required current.

 

The alternator doesn't work for free, as the load increases, the engine power required to allow the alternator to produce that power increases as well.

 

Now, assuming the average "W" is consuming 40A at highway speeds, we're using .9 horsepower to keep the electrical system running. Now, let's assume our HHO system is requiring 100A on top of that 40A to run. We now are consuming 1.3 ADDITIONAL horsepower just to supply all our electrical needs.

 

Now, some fancy math sites I've checked seem to give an average of around 20 horsepower to maintain 75MPH on level ground in the average car. Aerodynamics, road friction, and wind are being discounted here, as each are variables outside what we currently can know.

 

Now, I turn on my HHO, and require 21.3 horsepower to keep everything going-because my HHO is now consuming 100A. My HHO NOW has to produce 1115 Watts JUST TO BREAK EVEN, due to the extra horsepower the alternator is consuming to supply the additional electrical load. The problem is, my 100A HHO setup is consuming 1360 Watts!

 

I'm running a DEFICIT of 245 Watts. In order to see an efficiency improvement, a SURPLUS would be necessary. This is not the case.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2011 by Galaxie500XL

[RobertISaar]

and that's even assuming an 85% efficiency.

[guntotenmadman]

Thats fine if your car just sits there idling all of the time, but it doesn't. Thats like saying your 1000watt stereo system pulling 30amps is going to cause you to loose mpg. It would if all you do is sit in your driveway and listen to music.

I guess some of us are just idiots.

[RobertISaar]

Thats like saying your 1000watt stereo system pulling 30amps is going to cause you to loose mpg.

 

 

it does.

[mra32]

isn't anything worth a try?

 

the cost of admission is kinda high to be dealing with principles of magic.

 

 

 

But i dont know, i wouldnt squash anyones dreams before they get this going. The OP seemed pretty dead set on doing it from the beginning. I want it done and I want to see results.

 

BUT! riddle me this! Couldnt it potentially have value in storing the energy wasted when you are decelerating by using the engine only. So like if you are coming down a hill and the throttle is completely closed, and you want to be slowing down, anything that you use your car to power is totally BONUS ENERGY!? Since you'd otherwise be using the brakes to take the car's kinetic energy and turn it into wasteful heat energy from braking? This way you can take the kinetic energy that you want to decrease and transform it into something you use, which is first electrical energy then chemical energy...then heat energy going directly into the engine...wait a minute. That wouldnt work. You'd just be creating more heat in your engine bay (and wherever this reaction is taking place if its not in the engine bay) to slow down rather than more heat in your brakes to slow down. Thats not something I would consider more favorable, even though the additional heat is probably not something to be worried about

 

But you could probably store the generated gas in a vessel with a throttle valve linked to the throttle on the floor. or just have the gas inlet before the throttle body, but you'd still be using some at idle. Is that a bad (read: explosive) idea? To have the HHO sit in your intake tube until you mash the throttle again?

 

I guess what im saying is that this MIGHT have a little bit of value if you have a means to control the reaction only on 0% throttle where you are trying to slow down (and otherwise be using the brakes to slow down). AND that you have a means to {safely} store the gas generated on this decel to be used when you take off again.

 

The above satement also assumes that the charging system doesnt try to make the engine run more when it sees the higher load from the reaction, even on decel. I dont know nearly enough about charging systems to say whether that is a valid assumption.

[Galaxie500XL]

You're describing "regenerative braking". It's a big piece of what makes hybrids and other electrical vehicles more efficient. Problem is, it doesn't work so well with a vehicle powered solely by an internal combustion engine, because there's no way to reclaim the braking energy to be used by the engine.

 

Correction:

 

It IS possible to utilize regenerative braking for internal combustion engines...but you probably don't want to be lugging around a huge flywheel device in the trunk!

Edited March 8, 2011 by Galaxie500XL

[Hairdo12]

And all that is totally true if your only using the HHO gas to power the engine, we're not. We're just adding HHO to the system to enhance it. No perpetual motion. Gas or diesel is still being used, just less of it. Adding this system isn't converting it to run on HHO. The electricity is already there, so no extra power is used to convert/extract the HHO from the water.

 

It is totaly true in this case. Lets assume you created 5 cc of HHO, in a perfect world, you would have 100% efficiency. Therefore assume 5 cc of HHO yields 1 Joule of power, it would take 1 Joule of mechanical energy to create 1 Joule of electrical energy that would then be used to create that 1 Joule of HHO gas. Doesn't matter if you're powering 100% on the stuff or if you're only using .01%.

 

 

efficiency formula is (W_out/W_in)*100%

W_out is the work done by the machine is called the output work

W_in is the work done by you on a machine is called the input work

 

efficiency= useful work output/work input W_out can never be > W_in. If you can do that, then you can divide by zero.

[RobertISaar]

mike: interesting take, however, you'd likely see a larger benefit from just allowing DFCO to be enabled sooner, or increasing the amount of EGR at low throttle at high speeds, both would save fuel without any kind of investment either, assuming you already have the equipment necessary to burn chips/flash tunes, which the OP does.

[mra32]

You're describing "regenerative braking". It's a big piece of what makes hybrids and other electrical vehicles more efficient. Problem is, it doesn't work so well with a vehicle powered solely by an internal combustion engine, because there's no way to reclaim the braking energy to be used by the engine.

 

WHAT IS THIS 'DEGENERATIVE BRAKING' YOU SPEAK OF?

 

You know what pisses me off? When prius owners act like their car was the first vehicle in existence to use regenerative braking. EVER HEAR OF A FUCKING TRAIN THATS NOT STEAM POWERED? Thanks its been in use for well over a half century, dickwads.

 

 

Back on topic...yes obviously thats what I was describing. It may not be as efficient as a hybrid or full electric, but I think it might have some value for an ICE. Whether the gains would be enough to see a return on your investment is another question.

[Galaxie500XL]

Robert is correct. It DOES.

 

Simple principle of physics. that 1000 watts had to come from somewhere.

 

Of course, you could run that stereo solely off of the battery, but at some point, the chemical energy contained in the battery will be exhausted, so you'll either walk, or recharge the battery, but at some point MORE energy will be required to replace what you used, unless you just leave it dead.

 

BTW, that 1000W stereo represents an equivalent of 1.54 horsepower.

 

Nothing is free. The energy has to come from somewhere, and be converted to something, or at the very least, stored until needed.

 

Since no system is 100% efficient, the amount of energy coming out of the system is necessarily less than the amount put into the system.

 

That's the very thing that hung the guys that claimed to have discovered "cold fusion". They were claiming a net GAIN of energy in excess of what was present in the system..in other words, an efficiency of greater than 100%.

 

I'm afraid that's simply not possible at our level of technology, and no research has indicated a possibility that this will be achievable in the future.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Galaxie500XL

[mra32]

Thought you guys might wanna check this out:

 

[video=youtube;ATmUHp3lr1A]

[Galaxie500XL]

My wife walked behind me while I was watching the video. I was already cringing each time he referred to that monstrosity as a "supercharger". She came up just as they were demonstrating it running, and asked, "why did they put a hair dryer on that car?"

[mra32]

You know its running backwards in that video?

[Galaxie500XL]

Watching it run would be the only way you could tell...because you wouldn't notice anything different driving it.

 

Maybe it's not a "supercharger", but a powered Tornado device. Remember those?

[RobertISaar]

yeah, also failbus snakeoil product.

[Crazy K]

You know its running backwards in that video?

 

it sure looks like it was! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Also... you WILL observe a real boost in POWAR with this product!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES. that's right. I said when you use this product you WILL see a noticeable increase in power...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

cause when it is off it chokes up the total airway!