cbmcdona Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Hi guys I have a audio question for you. I have a 1989 Buick Regal Gran Sport with the factory concert sound II stereo system. The only thing that has been changed is an FM modulated CD changer was added about ten years ago. So on to my problem. Over about the last year or so now I have been getting a lot of noise in my stereo that increases with engine RPM, it is a buzzing whining sound. When the engine is off and the key is on the accessory or on positions there is no noise in the radio at all. I have done quite a few things to try and fix the problem. The spark plugs and wires have been replaced with delco ones so the resistance is correct. I replaced the alternator and the battery, and had the alternator tested after install to insure that it is good. I had all of three of the main grounds on the car inspected and cleaned. Also I tried regrounding the CD changer and also just unplugging it both of which did nothing, so I'm assuming that isn't the problem. The only other thing is the positive cable coming off of the alternator had a nick in it. I had a shop repair it by splicing it with a crimp connector, soldering the splice to the connector and then installing heat shrink over it. The repair is right next to the spark plug wires though so I was worried the could be inducing some interference. If anybody has any thoughts or suggestions they would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted2bass Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 The amplifier in your factory radio is probably going bad and picking up noise. Have you tried a different radio? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 factory wiring kind of sucks too. you could add a aftermarket ground to the HU and it might help. also cut that charge wire off the alt and throw it away. then run a new 4 gauge wire or better directly to the aux post. and dont just clean and inspect the engine ground. that will not help one bit. you gotta make a new one out of 4 gauge or something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmcdona Posted February 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Thanks guys for your help. I forgot to mention I'm on the second factory amp, they both did this so it could be the problem but it doesn't seem likely. I actually installed a 4 gauge cable from the alternator to the aux post on Sunday, but I left the factory charge wire. It seemed to help. I no longer have a whine that changes with engine revs, I only have a a constant fairly quiet buzzing now. I'll try doing the grounds this weekend and see if that fixes the rest of the problem. Should I have removed the factory charge wire when I installed my new 4 gauge one or is it ok that I left it. I'll let you guys know if the grounds fix the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 no you must remove the factory wire. why would you need it though if you think about it, you just put one on twice as big. leaving the stock one on there will split your voltage by adding resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp1991 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 mine does that too, i have to find time to fix that, but until then, CRANK THE TUNES lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white4d96 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 no you must remove the factory wire. why would you need it though if you think about it, you just put one on twice as big. leaving the stock one on there will split your voltage by adding resistance. :think::think::think::think: By your logic there's no point in using bigger wires because that's only going to add resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 well keep the stock wire then. see if it helps any. the info comes from actual experiments and personal experience. it is pretty basic electronics, coils are used for adding resistance and there are good and bad uses for it. one use is for crossover networks and taking the voice out of the woofer. when your alternator provides your car its power it operates at a certain frequency and I found that having unneeded lengths of wire will provide it with adverse effects. this is one of those things you would have to experiment on your own with a 1000 w+ system before you notice it probably. or you could just trust me on this one because I actually been there done that, and it set me back and pissed me off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white4d96 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I ran 1700RMS between two amps with a run of 4 gauge and the stock charge wire, no voltage drop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 if you used the stock charge wire then that would be the definition of hack job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmcdona Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Thanks everybody for the input. I do agree that from a pure physics/ engineering standpoint that leaving the stock charge wire can only introduce more resistance into the charging system. My main question on it is that since it is a stock stereo if the amount of harm that it will do would be noticeable? I'm just not looking forward to having to fish the dumb wire out of the harness. I'm still planning on doing the ground upgrade this weekend. I'm assuming it's the same case with the grounds, it's much better to remove the original and replace it with a larger wire, that leaving the original wire can just introduce more resistance and a possible source for a ground loop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 agreed. it will only introduce more resistance. for looks alone it would be far better to remove and toss the stock grounds. I have never removed the stock charge wire from my harness though. I simply shrink wrap the end and tuck it down. if you really want to, you can remove the other end from the starter and do away with the entire length of it. It would require testing the two fusible links down there to determine which one is the charge wire and shrink wrap that end as well. seems to only cause me problems if its a full loop. to white4d96, I didn't mean to make it sound like you have a getto system or anything. I thought about it again and there is a way that it would be fine leaving the stock charge wire if what you did was a 4 gauge wire from your alternator on back to a capacitor in the trunk it would work great. because then you would have 4 gauge all the way and I would not see a problem with that. but if you are running it from your aux post back without a good charge wire then that is not going to be optimal and you would be faced with a serious bottleneck for your power supply. I was acting like it could not happen and work good when it actually is possible with a cap or trunk battery. those stock charge wires only last 10 years tops before they rot out though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy K Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Have you had your alternator checked? noise in the radio can be symptomatic of a weak alternator... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow96SE Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) Not to threadjack or anything, but I had to jump in and say something. The idea of leaving the stock charge wire causing more resistance is asinine. The resistance in the stock wiring is so low, that it wouldn't be a big deal even if it did matter. Yes, stock wiring can't carry as much current as larger gauge wire you add for the Big 3, but it does not diminish anything either. It is like trying to fill a pool with a garden hose, then adding a bigger hose that pumps out more water. You do not get reduced flow, you increase it. Since the larger wire will have less resistance, your main draw will jump across that anyway. Leaving the smaller wire affects nothing, and is pretty much common practice in any Big 3 upgrade. Besides, that stock wire is fused anyway, so would blow itself if something went wrong. And, honestly, the Big 3 has been shown to really not make a whole lot of difference to begin with. The ones who really see the biggest gain, are people who are driving older cars that have corroded connections on their stock ground/amp wires. And for the record, caps are never a good idea as they just put more strain on your electrical system. Get an extra battery if you think you need a cap. Edited February 19, 2011 by Shadow96SE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 a cap is basically a battery. it gathers and stores electricity for instantaneous use taking the strain off the alternator. a battery has to convert chemicals and potential energy into an electrical energy supply. it is used for storage only. we are talking about running an amp when the car is running. the only time a battery will power the amp is when the car is off. the cap takes initial power storage and stiffens the power supply, you should have never tried to threadjack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow96SE Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I had a whole long argument typed out regarding the cap issue.. but honestly, there's no point in even wasting the time. It's done been beat to death everywhere else and has nothing to do with this thread. So I'll sum it up with: You don't need a cap or battery for a basic sub amp if your alternator and wiring are good. Even around 1000w RMS, you still should be fine with a HO alt/good wiring and battery. My post was mainly to point out how ridiculous your statement was about the stock wiring being detrimental to the Big 3 upgrade. But back to the OP: Generally the whining is caused by a bad condenser in the alternator circuit. Basically what it does is supresses RFI into the ground circuit, reducing noise in your audio system. Since the car is an '89 though, it could just be a matter of checking over your grounds in the vehicle making sure they're not too compromised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 condenser? where do you find this in the alternator circuit? sounds like you got quite a custom wiring setup. are you going to offer to take this matter up on your car audio forum now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white4d96 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) to white4d96, I didn't mean to make it sound like you have a getto system or anything. I thought about it again and there is a way that it would be fine leaving the stock charge wire if what you did was a 4 gauge wire from your alternator on back to a capacitor in the trunk it would work great. because then you would have 4 gauge all the way and I would not see a problem with that. but if you are running it from your aux post back without a good charge wire then that is not going to be optimal and you would be faced with a serious bottleneck for your power supply. I was acting like it could not happen and work good when it actually is possible with a cap or trunk battery. those stock charge wires only last 10 years tops before they rot out though. No problem, I should have been more clear. I left the stock wiring all intact, and added a batt-chassis ground, and an alt-batt (pos) run. I haven't had a chance to add an engine-chassis/batt ground yet but when it warms up I will. The cap thing has been beat to death before as well. Your traditional car audio caps are only good for smoothing out the spikes and dips in voltage in a system that has otherwise stable voltage. If you have voltage drop, you need more battery and/or more alt, not caps. Another thought: The CS130D alts that the 3100's use are notorious for being absolute SHIT. They are rated at 105A but I have heard that many barely do 80 peak, and idle amperage is horrible. I have heard that some people swap to AD244 alts which do a lot better but have no experience with this. Edited February 19, 2011 by white4d96 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 well I paid around $400 for a custom cs130d and it cranks out 165 amps rms. it is also not a HO piece of shit that wont charge at idle. they are about as good as you build them. it cranks at idle and with my cap display at idle reading steady output under load of 14.7, I am happy the regulator is externally regulated on this style unlike the cs130 makes for much more reliable performance. nothing ac delco makes sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white4d96 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Not all HO alts have bad idle amperage, it's all in the build. I know of an alt that will do close to 200A at idle. https://www.dcpowerinc.com/8206-270-xp.html Someone local to me runs one of these powering about 21kw in a Venture, he swears by them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow96SE Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 condenser? where do you find this in the alternator circuit? sounds like you got quite a custom wiring setup. Older cars generally came with condensers, and I mistakenly thought 89 might have been old enough.. (was off by about a decade or so, oh well .. ). Point is, noise generally comes from a problem with your charging circuit, or grounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmcdona Posted February 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 UPDATE: Ok guys I have an update. I upgraded my grounds today, both the engine and body grounds. I ran 4 gauge wire for from the grounding points directly to the negative terminal of the battery. After doing this I didn't notice any difference with my radio or with the cars charging but the car does seem to run a bit better (the engine ground was pretty corroded). The radio still has a buzzing noise in it just like it did before. Also the car seems to charge fine going down the road but at idle id drops all the way down to 9-10 volts and it's much worse with the lights or the AC on. I thought with a big three upgrade my car would charge better than it is (I did the alternator cable to AUX post last week). I'm about ready to give up on this whole problem. I know a couple of people mentioned the alternator as a cause but it is a new rebuilt one and I had it tested before it was installed to insure that it was good. It is just a Delco replacement from Autozone though and not a fancy high output one. So if anybody has any other thoughts or suggestions they would be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow96SE Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) If it is dropping that low at idle, my first guess would be to test the battery. Even if the alternator went out, a good battery should still keep it well above 10v for a little while. When the car is revving, your alt is picking up the slack boosting your voltage. However at idle, the alt doesn't put out as much and a bad battery could be putting too much draw on it. This could also be the cause of your slight noise in the radio, as the battery's resistance is changed if a cell goes out, which adds more strain to your charging circuit. Edited February 19, 2011 by Shadow96SE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmcdona Posted February 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Thanks for the advice about the battery but it was replaced a couple of weeks ago when I changed the alternator. So I'm assuming that it should be good. That's why it's driving me so crazy I can't think of anything else to check or replace. The alternator, positive cables, ground cables, battery, spark plugs, and plug wires are all brand new. I'm starting to wonder if there's a short or a bad ground somewhere besides the main charging system, maybe to the main fuse block or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow96SE Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Hmm... the voltage drop you are seeing, is it from the dash gauge or are you using a meter on the battery? If it's the gauge, it could be bad, but if the battery itself is showing 9-10v, it is either bad or needs topped off. Even new batteries can be faulty and show a bad cell within a short time, so I would still make sure to fully charge it and have it load tested. However, if the reading across the battery shows 12v, and higher when running, then there is definitely something else down the circuit that is having problems. In that case, all I can say is good luck, diagnosing electrical issues when it's not the main circuit are usually a pain .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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