xtremerevolution Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) My local shop deals ID and DD The owner's a crabby Italian but he knows his stuff. As for Sundown power, a friend of mine lent me his SAE-1200 for a night to hook up to my R-12's and even at a 2-ohm load it was insane, louder even than when I had it hooked up to my MTX 81000 (which was supposedly 1500@2ohm@14.4V.) If it weren't for the insane price tag I would own one already. Excellent to hear that other people are selling DD and ID. That sounds like the right kind of shop to be visiting, and yes, Sundown subs put down massive amounts of power. I am curious about the linear excursion capabilities and frequency response of the ID subs. ok looked at the site on the ID v3, OK, their catch phrase is they are the standard for affordable high performance. I see why because they only have 17 mm of linear excursion. that is not what I would consider SQ. here is a mid level sub of much higher capability without a fancy name that will move over 2 inches completely linear. they are called TC sounds. close on the heels of JL audio and Boston. watch these specs literally blow ID out of the water! http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-658 remember to not only look at the company reputation, but also the specs in black and white. people will tell you what they like but you can tell by the looks and comparing specs. like when people ask for a dyno sheet when you claim you are putting down the power. I would like to know how low those ID subs will hit. and I know those TC subs look bad ass as hell. OH WOW! just looked and they throw down 15 HZ! that is serious HSQ! now lets look on ID website for low frequency output hmmm lets see. how low will they hit? SQ subs will hit VERY low if they truly are SQ. that is the definition basically. so any SQ sub builder is going to brag about the extended low frequency tones it can make over the SPL guys who hit much higher ear shattering bass. well where is the bragging? they will not list this spec? well if they are not SPL and bragging about "affordable" sound quality, I guess that makes it a flea market brand. I don't know for sure though. what are the specs on it??? Buddy, specs only mean so much. Go over on DIYMA and tell people that Image Dynamics is a flea market brand and see how fast you get flamed by everyone there. You want to hear SQ, come to Chicago and sit in my Regal. These are competition winning SQ subs. ID has a reputation with SQ competitors and they're a force to be reckoned with. They are also known for producing great sound with very little power and producing that sound in amazingly small enclosures. People who have heard them compare them to premium brands like Focal. Let me put it this way. For frequency response, flawless transitions, pure reproduction accuracy, tightness, and refinement, you cannot beat an ID sub for the price in the SQ sector. There is more to SQ than just low end frequency response. These ID subs are built for SQ and are the most musical subs you can find at anywhere near that price point. Oh, and by the way, I'm running IDQ 10" V2's, not ID V3's. Edited February 21, 2011 by xtremerevolution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 focal is made in Japan. all the best speakers are made in USA. how can it reproduce anything accurately, or pure if it is not capable of even hitting that low? that alone makes me doubt you. that you have to rely on what others say instead of simply proving it for yourself. flawless transitions, tightness and refinement are words describing the feeling you get, not actual specs that I can compare to other brands. yes I can see you like to refer to other forums, while they can be useful, I have never seen so much good info mixed with a bunch of misleading assholes. there are some flamers, but they are the ones I consider misleading with no proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) focal is made in Japan. all the best speakers are made in USA. how can it reproduce anything accurately, or pure if it is not capable of even hitting that low? that alone makes me doubt you. that you have to rely on what others say instead of simply proving it for yourself. flawless transitions, tightness and refinement are words describing the feeling you get, not actual specs that I can compare to other brands. yes I can see you like to refer to other forums, while they can be useful, I have never seen so much good info mixed with a bunch of misleading assholes. there are some flamers, but they are the ones I consider misleading with no proof. Alright, seriously, I'm done here. You insist that a sub has to have massive excursion and hit subsonic frequencies in order to be musical and have accurate reproduction. I haven't heard such massive bullshit in a long time. Sorry, I'm done with this thread. If you need proof of the SQ competitions these subs have won, I'm sure I can get the proof, but don't come in here telling me that extremely low frequency response and excursion are the sole factor in what true SQ is. You buy one of those subs, enter an SQ competition, and you'll come back with your tail between your legs as you get humiliated by much smaller and lower rated subs that sound much more musical. Edited February 21, 2011 by xtremerevolution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thickey8 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 The only place I've found them is on woofersetc.com. Otherwise, you would have to find a dealer or get them used like I did. A great place to get used equipment is dyima.com. These guys are audiophile professional grade. I felt 100% confident in buying these used because I know the guy who installed it there knew what he was doing and didn't overpower or blow them. Another brand similar to this is Digital Designs. I have a buddy on another forum who bought one. You can get those only at authorized dealers or direct, and they're not cheap at all. Their 12" 750W model sells for $330 if you're lucky to find it. However, that sub will gladly take 1500W all day long and sounds 10x better than anything Kicker has ever released. If you want to go with more common quality brands, there's RE Audio, Fi, and my personal favorites, Sundown Audio. Sundown makes epically amazing subs. Here's a video of two SA-12's. http://www.amazon.com/SA-12-D4-Sundown-Audio-Subwoofer/dp/B003ZWBG7Q/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1298239281&sr=8-2 They're severely underrated and put out a LOT of power, but you'll never hear of them at Best buy, and many retail stores don't carry them either. if i were to get a pair of sundowns what amp would you recommend running something good but not to pricie im not make of money ha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 if i were to get a pair of sundowns what amp would you recommend running something good but not to pricie im not make of money ha Get an amp that's CEA certified. Go with brands like Alpine, Sundown, Kicker, etc. While I don't usually like Kicker, they do make decent amps, albeit sometimes overpriced. List one here if you are interested and we'll provide feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 the artist is I believe what makes the music. the amplifier and HU are even more what makes the music. the speaker is a physical thing that vibrates out from a cone shape. not much room for anything artistic in influence if you think about it. it goes two directions- forward and backward. it produces certain frequencies out of a cone shape for the most part. they over engineered the piss out of them and made a giant pissing match over it like a decade ago. a bunch of patents were awarded to the winner. others wished they could compete but it was found that the dynamic range increased linearly with sound quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 What would you say to someone who called Image Dynamics a flea market brand that has garbage specs in regard to SQ? I wouldn't even entertain that because clearly that's as ignorant of a comment as there is. Like I said, you're more than welcome to join dyima.com and argue with them. Here's who I bought the subs from: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/93255-sundown-1500d-100-4-maybe-second-skin.html In reference to the ID subs and amps he was selling For reference, they were used by my wife to take home the MECA Stock Class CA state championhsip. This guy is the Regional NorCal MECA promoter. Having competed in numerous SQ competitions and won one of them with these subs and two Sundown amps, I'd say he knows what he's talking about. He's a very respected member on that board. No, I don't know everything there is to know about car subs, but I do know that these are excellent SQ subs and you will not find beat them in SQ for the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 if you look back I never said anything about garbage specs. I said I could find NO specs on them, and I went to their site expecting them to post some specs and found nothing to brag of besides good deals. I am starting to think I am ignorant and should just believe them that they are good. believe that because someone installed them in a vehicle with tons of variables in close tolerances and won a competition with that specific vibrating cone. would it be easier if I just trusted you and the guy you bought them from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) if you look back I never said anything about garbage specs. I said I could find NO specs on them, and I went to their site expecting them to post some specs and found nothing to brag of besides good deals. I am starting to think I am ignorant and should just believe them that they are good. believe that because someone installed them in a vehicle with tons of variables in close tolerances and won a competition with that specific vibrating cone. would it be easier if I just trusted you and the guy you bought them from? You make it sound like you can grab most any sub off the shelf with a large excursion and win an SQ competition with it. You are more than welcome to join this forum of experts, and post in this thread and tell them they have no idea what they're talking about because the IDQ 10v2 subs have a low excursion and can't possibly be a true SQ sub. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/system-design-help-me-choose-equipment-my-car/68883-ultimate-sq-sub-please-vote.html There are some subs that don't need explanations or specs and are respected based on reputation, and the Image Dynamics IDQ V2 line is one of them. Some subs are geared more for SQ than others. This for example is an amazing SQ sub which was reinforced by the people in that thread: http://www.morelhifi.com/products/mob_subwoofers_ultimo.html Yet with only a 12.5mm maximum linear excursion? How could it be! The reason I went with the IDQ subs is because they compete with much more expensive SQ subs out there at a very affordable price point. If you're on a budget and you want SQ, Image Dynamics should be on the top of your list of choices. Edited February 21, 2011 by xtremerevolution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 If anyone is interested, this guy is selling 3 SA-12's for $160 each shipped: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/98369-sundown-audio-sa-12-subs.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 I'd like to add a few things to the subs I just mentioned in regard to SQ. Its one of those things that you don't really realize. Reading a review of the Morel sub posted earlier, I finally have the words to describe what these ID subs sound like. They are transparent and colorless, yet tight and impactful. Its very fast and has no flabbiness. The following quote represents exactly what I thought when I first hooked up these two subs: After hooking the sub up in the .85 cu ft sealed enclosure I ran auto eq and ta on my 880PRS, and got in for a listen. My first impression was ... is it on? Is everything working? I can't hear it, WTF? Eventually I figured it out ... holy sh*t! So this is what "transparent" means. Granted, the Morel Ultimo is a $800 subwoofer, but it is the pinnacle of SQ. Its not some massive excursion sub that can hit 15hz with no distortion at stupid high levels. There's more to SQ than that. Another statement reflects how the ID subs sound: When you listen to music, the sub just makes the notes happen that it's supposed to, you can't hear any noise at all from it, can't localize where it may be. It sounds like the low frequencies are just ''there''. I highly recommend giving one a listen in a properly tuned and aligned vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Granted, the Morel Ultimo is a $800 subwoofer, but it is the pinnacle of SQ. Its not some massive excursion sub that can hit 15hz with no distortion at stupid high levels. There's more to SQ than that. Morel Utimo 12 frequency response: 10-900 Hz. JL audio W7 is designed far better than that morel even. some claim the W7 can do 6 Hz, and I think I might have personally achieved that at one point when I had my 1000/1 amp before it got ripped off. it was like an earthquake. I also entered a Db drag race and hit 135 something Db with that single sub. I wouldn't expect the morel to have that kind of excursion because it isn't hitting that low. I doubt it could do the 10 like it says if it has that much excursion. or is it simply the LINEAR excursion its capable of? that is seriously a point to consider. anyway what you need to achieve SQ is mainly a sealed enclosure, high power, and the ability to accurately reproduce all the recorded sound. if you are missing a chunk of the spectrum, do not expect to have full SQ. look up the 6 patented technologies used by JL audio, and you will see why they can be still considered the best in the world after over 10 years. things like patented technology and linear excursion are things you want to look at for sure when judging the performance of a woofer. for you to claim that 15 Hz and excursion doesn't matter when you list the Morel Ultimo as the pinnacle of vibrating cones hits 10 Hz? then why cant the lighter, more rigid patented W-cone do the same? in order for them to achieve the specs they are rated for all angles of the woofer must be looked at and engineered for the best performance making it naturally the best SQ available. don't get me wrong, i would desperately like to get my hands on a full morel speaker system for one of my cars. I love their stuff. I want those 50,000 Hz tweeters they have. I bet they sound unreal, I have some 40,000 Hz tweeters in my home speakers here and they will not only do the highs, but the spectrum of sound they emit is extremely SQ. it is the same concept as the woofers. If they can hit that high, well then they naturally will do the rest of the spectrum with ease. these tweeters have magnets the size of a car 6x9 on them though and can take some watts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Did you not hear anything thing I said about transparency, accuracy, and extremely fast transitions (no overhang)? I never said the low frequency response wasn't important. I simply said that it wasn't the only thing that was important. http://imagedynamicsusa.com/pdf/iD%20Discontinued%20Speakers%20and%20Eletronics/iDQ10%20D2%20V2.pdf According to that specs chart for the IDQ10V2's I have, they will individually hit 10hz @ 90db in a sealed box. Seriously, stick to the topic. I'm talking about SQ, not SPL. I'm talking about transparency, not high output. Now I'm not about to jump on the anti-JL bandwagon that a great number of people on many diyma.com seem to be on, but what you're saying is ridiculous. The JL W7 is not designed for the same purposes as the Morel Ultimo. The Morel Ultimo is a pure SQ sub, and it reaches a level of sound quality that the JL W7 will never touch. They shouldn't even be compared. These are two completely different applications. No, I'm sorry, the JL W7 will never come close to the SQ of a Morel Ultimo or any IDQ sub. The W7 is way too boomy and uncontrolled by comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 and do you want to tell me why any sub should not be compared with any other sub? sometimes it seems that you rely on this. you finally get around to bragging about your speaker and actually posting some specs on it and then you claim that they should not be compared? where is the logic in this? where do you get uncontrolled from? I am not about to jump on anyone's bandwagon either without comparing some graphs. I was wrong, there are 8 patented technologies involved with my sub. all making it superior. I see that it is an extremely flat bass curve which makes it compare to the JL in a sense, however the w-7 has a good amount more output and power handling not to mention linear excursion. I am looking at the sealed box spec for 3 Db roll off at 14 Hz with the .6 cuft box. I just like to compare specs and reviews as well. here is some stuff written about the w7 posted on their website. some of the same jargon in the stuff they said about them but also saying that it leaves nothing to be desired. flawless transitions and all that. yes I hear you when you talk about it, are you recognizing that linear excursion can increase output of lower frequencies is the question. you act like I am ignorant of all those traits but I can read reviews too. they are saying over and over that the frequency response IS important and what they want. http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_pages.php?page_id=9 so you have personally listened to the w7 and the morel, both in sealed boxes to compare them with your sub? you claim that the w7 is boomy and uncontrolled, so I would assume so. I would like to know which amp was used that you heard on the w7 that made it sound bad. the 1000/1 made it sound beautiful for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) I don't have to listen to the two to compare them. I know for a fact from everyone else's SQ competing experiences that a W7 will not win an SQ competition. It will sound clean for the SPL ear, but its not an SQ sub. It has a tubby low end, hesitation, no snap, can go mega low, and has lots of clean SPL, but its not a quick responsive sub with tonal accuracy. They just aren't! You will not win an SQ competition with one so long as an SQ designed sub is in the same arena. It is insulting to brands that excel in SQ that you would claim that the W7 could even compete, let alone outperform them in SQ. It must really bother you to hear that your $1000 sub is inferior in SQ to brands and subs that strive for SQ, but the simple fact is that JL W7's are not hot shit when it comes to SQ no matter how low and hard they hit. Edited February 22, 2011 by xtremerevolution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 I have a $1000 sub leaving nothing to be desired that SQ guys rave about with 8 patented technologies that as you say hits low and hard, and I have a reason to be bothered? you describe it quite well. lots of clean SPL. I would be glad to hear the ID in comparison. It would be ignorant and snobby for me not to even though I own a sub that has so much patented technology that it makes it hard for others to even compete. they are now forced to strive to be similar. if you have studied economics there are many similar cases to this in other industries. take for instance the beer industry and market for the light lager during the industrial revolution. while it is accurate for you to assume that they sound clear to an SPL ear, if they have any hearing left. yes its true they can go mega low. again you would assume. I can reliably predict that yours can't with my real world knowledge. having paid the cost to experience this over a decade ago, I owned the "industry standard" for which to compare all other woofers. and had 10 years to form an opinion. not here to compare my opinion to your opinion of others opinions, that would be sort of off topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtuetovice Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 My input: craigslist is a great place to buy good used audio equipment. Just beware of "white truck" sellers pushing garbage brands you've never heard of. Also beware of ads with long lists of multiple amps and boxes priced dirt cheap, more often than not that's a thief trying to quickly get rid of stolen equipment. As far as wiring goes...THICKER IS BETTER...PERIOD! When you have a large current draw, you should always use large wires as well. Box insulation: go to the craft section of wal-mart and buy some polyester pillow stuffing. It's dirt cheap and it's exactly the same stuff audio companies try to sell for 1000% markup. It does actually make a difference, nice clean bass with a good tone and no unwanted noise. Don't stuff it tight, fluff it out and basically try to go for a light cloud taking up the entire inside of the box. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white4d96 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 My input: craigslist is a great place to buy good used audio equipment. Just beware of "white truck" sellers pushing garbage brands you've never heard of. Also beware of ads with long lists of multiple amps and boxes priced dirt cheap, more often than not that's a thief trying to quickly get rid of stolen equipment. As far as wiring goes...THICKER IS BETTER...PERIOD! When you have a large current draw, you should always use large wires as well. Box insulation: go to the craft section of wal-mart and buy some polyester pillow stuffing. It's dirt cheap and it's exactly the same stuff audio companies try to sell for 1000% markup. It does actually make a difference, nice clean bass with a good tone and no unwanted noise. Don't stuff it tight, fluff it out and basically try to go for a light cloud taking up the entire inside of the box. Hope this helps. FWIW I stuffed 1lb of polyfill in each chamber of my 1.3cube ported enclosure last year, and while I took a slight hit in loudness it played much lower and much flatter. Only reason I took it out was because I had no way to keep it in the box, kept blowing out the port Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I have a $1000 sub leaving nothing to be desired that SQ guys rave about with 8 patented technologies that as you say hits low and hard, and I have a reason to be bothered? you describe it quite well. lots of clean SPL. I would be glad to hear the ID in comparison. It would be ignorant and snobby for me not to even though I own a sub that has so much patented technology that it makes it hard for others to even compete. they are now forced to strive to be similar. if you have studied economics there are many similar cases to this in other industries. take for instance the beer industry and market for the light lager during the industrial revolution. while it is accurate for you to assume that they sound clear to an SPL ear, if they have any hearing left. yes its true they can go mega low. again you would assume. I can reliably predict that yours can't with my real world knowledge. having paid the cost to experience this over a decade ago, I owned the "industry standard" for which to compare all other woofers. and had 10 years to form an opinion. not here to compare my opinion to your opinion of others opinions, that would be sort of off topic. Did I ever say you had a reason to be bothered? Why are you taking this personally? I'm making a point not to defend myself or to offend you, but to point out what the facts are. W7's are not designed to be SQ subs. I'd categorize them more as high end SQ/SPL subs that provide a blend of both, which not very many subs can do well. They are designed to have clean SPL. Clean SPL does not mean pure SQ. There's a difference. I admit its an excellent sub, since they're obviously selling very well, but in aspects regarding pure SQ, transparency, transitions, and "tightness," it isn't in the same category as the Ultimo subs. I know for a fact my ID subs will not get as loud. People have hit 141db with two of these in a sealed box which is a feat in itself, but that was considering cabin gain and a variety of other factors, and I'm sure that in the same car with a properly configured system, the W7 would have reached higher levels. However, I didn't want something superbly loud when I replaced my 15" Hifonics 1600W sub. I wanted something as refined and accurate as you can possibly get without giving an arm or a leg even at the cost of SPL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtuetovice Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 FWIW I stuffed 1lb of polyfill in each chamber of my 1.3cube ported enclosure last year, and while I took a slight hit in loudness it played much lower and much flatter. Only reason I took it out was because I had no way to keep it in the box, kept blowing out the port I had that problem back when i had a big box in my cavalier. The solution was chicken wire over the inside of the ports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Garrett Powered, I read through my previous posts in this thread and realized I sounded a lot like a dick. Regardless of whether either of us was right or wrong, I wanted to apologize for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 we all sound like dicks sometimes. you know what though, I still love you dude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 we all sound like dicks sometimes. you know what though, I still love you dude! I love you too dude!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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